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nmkcle

Rascist tattoo redo

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All right. Let me go over this one last time. I gave him a steep price hoping he would walk. He accepted the price because the shop he was at just before that, quoted even higher.

I did not and will not do the tattoo. I also won't do any tattoo that will impact someones life(wearer or viewer)in a negative way. The guy did not show up and did not really set an appointment it was kind of tentative. When and if he comes back I will tell him what I just told to you. Cool pictures by the way,I imagine you have a nice collection going. Thanks for the feed back as well. Everyone has been really helpful on this topic.

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Sorry, let me try from a different angle. What is your policy on neck, hands, face tattoos? Say that you just wont tattoo hands, necks, faces, or anti-semetic tattoos. He/she will get the point.

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All right. Let me go over this one last time. I gave him a steep price hoping he would walk. He accepted the price because the shop he was at just before that, quoted even higher.

I am not trying to be a dick. Just curious.

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I believe you are seeing things a bit out of context.

In the first place, if we say as a fact that the Third Reich ended-up killing six million assorted peoples, then how is the swastika more of a "hate symbol" than the Hammer and Sickle, the insignia of the Stalinist regime that was responsible for the death of over sixty-million people?

As for the "Black Power" movement, you should do a little research. There were a fairly large number-not in the millions, certainly, but a fairly large number, killed by those espousing it. Maybe read-up a bit on the Nation of Islam, see what their early teachings regarding the White race were...and to a large extent still are.

Azatlan...now that's a real good one. The "Reconquista". Check that out and feel the love.

Last but not least, I will reiterate two points. One is that many people used the swastika without ANY political or racial connnotations in the not-too-distant past. It was actually a very common thing for bikers, especially, to either wear it or have it tattooed on them.

The second point is that if the work was done in a prison, it was quite likely to have been done in order to survive. Whites are a distinct minority in almost every prison in this country, and there are groups such as the BGF to name but one, who would dearly love to see that nminority erased. Once inside, many Whites band together for protection, and the swastika is a very common symbol of those groups.

White Power, Black Power, Brown Power...I put them all on the same plane. A racist is a racist, no matter what color he is.

Agreed!

Also in reference to the original post. I think you might want to set boundaries for the future. I know most 2 artist I talked to will not do face tattoos ever and rarely will do hands/neck (never asked about content). I say only do what you want to. While doing your job means doing some stuff you aren't exactly thrilled with is one thing, doing something that you are really opposed to is another. I would say tell him you thought it over and you don't want to do it. Maybe point him to another shop/artist that you think wouldn't mind.

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Agreed!

Also in reference to the original post. I think you might want to set boundaries for the future. I know most 2 artist I talked to will not do face tattoos ever and rarely will do hands/neck (never asked about content). I say only do what you want to. While doing your job means doing some stuff you aren't exactly thrilled with is one thing, doing something that you are really opposed to is another. I would say tell him you thought it over and you don't want to do it. Maybe point him to another shop/artist that you think wouldn't mind.

While getting tattooed, my go-to buddy at Sacred constantly gets requests for face/neck tattoos. He always calmly and perfectly states that it is just not his thing and always recommends someone either in the shop or another shop that would be happy to do it. People usually respond with some kind of hostility towards him which I dont understand at all. Then again, downtown Oakland usually attracts some assholish mother fuckers.

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Having watched this last night, this line comes to mind:

"...See we like our Nazis in uniform, so we can spot 'em *snap* - like that. Once you take off that uniform, ain't no one going to know your a Nazi, and that don't sit well with us. So I'm going to give you a little something you can't take off." Lt. Aldo Raines Inglorious Basterds

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if the approach is quoting a high price in hopes they'll walk, you should be ready to do the tattoo if they agree to the price. either way, it should be a lesson learned on what your values are and how you will stand up for them.

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if the approach is quoting a high price in hopes they'll walk, you should be ready to do the tattoo if they agree to the price...

exactly. And in quoting high, you adversely affect your name. To him and the people he speaks to, you charge exorbitant rates for simple cleanup work. At the end of the day, he gets to be who he is openly without sweating how it's received and so should you. Neither of you has to explain yourselves. Judgment is deciding what other people should do, integrity is deciding what you should do...always do one and seldom the other and you should be alright, in work and in life.

Two weeks ago, a guy came in on a busy walk-in day wanting an iron cross with a swastika wrapped around it. We simply told him we don't do them, we're not the place -- short and sweet, on to the next.

Further back, I had a guy who wanted to clean up some old stuff and expand it into a sleeve. What he showed me was no problem but when he came back and took his shirt off, he revealed a huge swastika on his ribs and some SS insignia, stuff like that. He made his choices in life, that's his business. What I do is mine so I gave him some good ideas for the reworking of his current tattoos, told him I don't do that stuff but I can work around it with the new work. No lengthy discussion needed. He was on board with the solid ideas I had for his sleeve so I turned up the soul music and got to work. He got some great tattoos, I turned him on to quality work and he came back week after week, then sent his friends in.

Had I bullshitted him until he left instead of speaking freely we both would have missed out on the chance to get some good work going.

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exactly. And in quoting high, you adversely affect your name. To him and the people he speaks to, you charge exorbitant rates for simple cleanup work. At the end of the day, he gets to be who he is openly without sweating how it's received and so should you. Neither of you has to explain yourselves. Judgment is deciding what other people should do, integrity is deciding what you should do...always do one and seldom the other and you should be alright, in work and in life.

Two weeks ago, a guy came in on a busy walk-in day wanting an iron cross with a swastika wrapped around it. We simply told him we don't do them, we're not the place -- short and sweet, on to the next.

Further back, I had a guy who wanted to clean up some old stuff and expand it into a sleeve. What he showed me was no problem but when he came back and took his shirt off, he revealed a huge swastika on his ribs and some SS insignia, stuff like that. He made his choices in life, that's his business. What I do is mine so I gave him some good ideas for the reworking of his current tattoos, told him I don't do that stuff but I can work around it with the new work. No lengthy discussion needed. He was on board with the solid ideas I had for his sleeve so I turned up the soul music and got to work. He got some great tattoos, I turned him on to quality work and he came back week after week, then sent his friends in.

Had I bullshitted him until he left instead of speaking freely we both would have missed out on the chance to get some good work going.

yes, I agree, and like I said lesson learned, in the future I will just be straight up with him. Tell I won't do certain things. It was just the first time it happened to me and I did not think it would happen in a Cleveland Ghetto. Seen a lot covered just not any requests for redoing them. Kind of threw me. But I have my bearing now thanks.

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Like I said though, the shop he was at before quoted even higher. Like 100 dollars higher. Poor guy may never be able to polish his bigotry. (< sarcasm)

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Maybe he can get them touched up next time he's in prison. That shouldn't be too long!

Yeah, everybody's better than some loser that's stacked time.

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I don't think Hogrider's reply was suggesting that anybody who's done time is somehow less than anyone. I also don't think that getting stuff done in prison to save your ass equals getting that prison tattoo touched up when you get out. I certainly agree that some people do things in prison to survive that they might not otherwise believe in. If you get out of prison and you're still doing that stuff, then what it says to me is that you must really believe that stuff.

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I don't think Hogrider's reply was suggesting that anybody who's done time is somehow less than anyone.

Just a joke. Everybody makes mistakes, some people just pay a higher price for them. A guy steals $100 from a liquor store he goes to jail for 5 years, a guy steal $100,000,000 from a bunch of poor working stiffs and he gets a million dollar pension.

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I hesitate to do all this politlcal shit on what is a forum for and about tattooing.

That said, there seems to be no one more intolerant than one who espouses tolerance.

If you don't want to tattoo something, that's fine, totally your business. But don't call the "racist" bullshit if you're willing to do the portraits of Che, the clenched fist, the Hammer and Sickle, all those other symbols that are, ultimately, racist.

The swastika is derived from the Sunwheel, which was/is a symbol used by the ancestory of ALL White people for thousands of years before a group of fanatical SOCIALISTS cloaked themselves in Nationalism and used it as a symbol of their regime. Many people still use the sunwheel, or various iterations of the swastika, as a sign of their beliefs.

MAny people today still have swastikas tattooed on them that have no political meaning whatsoever. I know it's hard for someone that is, say, in their twenties or early thirties to imagine an era before political correctness, but int he sixties and seventies, the swastika was extensively used, especially by "bikers", as an emblem to shock, or to express their alienation from society.

This does not make them racist.

If such a person were to get that tattoo retouched, it could well be nothing more than refreshing their memories of that time. If a person got such a tattoo in prison, it's quite possible that they have an attachment to it that transcends politics or race. A mark of survival, if you will.

I've posted before that I've done too many "bad" things to judge ANYONE for anything. I guess I've lost touch with that essence of absolute innocence and conviction that allows one to condemn sommeone they know nothing of because of a symbol they have tattooed on them.

And just to prove what a racist I am, my oldest son's Godfather is Puerto Rican, my Granddaughter is a quarter "Native-American", and my best friend and main partner is half-Riquenoo tambien.

To be truly tolerant of others means to be able to be tolerant of them even when you don't agree with them.

.02

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Hey man this was never about the symbol. And I agree with you on politics having little to do with tattoos. I just wanted some feed back as to whether or not I am being a jerk for refusing to do something I am very capable of doing. It just happened to be a Nazi swastika. And Swastikas were around way before white people. I have seen cuneiform writing with swastika like patterns. Most people however attribute it to Hopi Indians, Buddhist, and India. None of which are white people. I understand the hammer and sickle Stalin thing. Not to well versed on the whole communism thing but I get it. But seriously, comparing a black power fist to a Nazi swastika is reaching. That fist symbolizes empowerment over oppression. It was used to rally for unity and more over safety of black people. If you have any doubt of this read about Cointelpro, War on black America you may change your mind.

So that was the first tattoo I had to now turn down. I have not had to do that before, I like the challenge of people bringing in whatever non tattoo able reference and drawing it to make a tattoo. Or using old flash as reference. I have no issues with any ones beliefs, so long as they don't take it to my door step.

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I hesitate to do all this politlcal shit on what is a forum for and about tattooing.

That said, there seems to be no one more intolerant than one who espouses tolerance.

If you don't want to tattoo something, that's fine, totally your business. But don't call the "racist" bullshit if you're willing to do the portraits of Che, the clenched fist, the Hammer and Sickle, all those other symbols that are, ultimately, racist.

The swastika is derived from the Sunwheel, which was/is a symbol used by the ancestory of ALL White people for thousands of years before a group of fanatical SOCIALISTS cloaked themselves in Nationalism and used it as a symbol of their regime. Many people still use the sunwheel, or various iterations of the swastika, as a sign of their beliefs.

MAny people today still have swastikas tattooed on them that have no political meaning whatsoever. I know it's hard for someone that is, say, in their twenties or early thirties to imagine an era before political correctness, but int he sixties and seventies, the swastika was extensively used, especially by "bikers", as an emblem to shock, or to express their alienation from society.

This does not make them racist.

If such a person were to get that tattoo retouched, it could well be nothing more than refreshing their memories of that time. If a person got such a tattoo in prison, it's quite possible that they have an attachment to it that transcends politics or race. A mark of survival, if you will.

I've posted before that I've done too many "bad" things to judge ANYONE for anything. I guess I've lost touch with that essence of absolute innocence and conviction that allows one to condemn sommeone they know nothing of because of a symbol they have tattooed on them.

And just to prove what a racist I am, my oldest son's Godfather is Puerto Rican, my Granddaughter is a quarter "Native-American", and my best friend and main partner is half-Riquenoo tambien.

To be truly tolerant of others means to be able to be tolerant of them even when you don't agree with them.

.02

Thank you for your input.

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Hey man this was never about the symbol. And I agree with you on politics having little to do with tattoos. I just wanted some feed back as to whether or not I am being a jerk for refusing to do something I am very capable of doing. It just happened to be a Nazi swastika. And Swastikas were around way before white people. I have seen cuneiform writing with swastika like patterns. Most people however attribute it to Hopi Indians, Buddhist, and India. None of which are white people. I understand the hammer and sickle Stalin thing. Not to well versed on the whole communism thing but I get it. But seriously, comparing a black power fist to a Nazi swastika is reaching. That fist symbolizes empowerment over oppression. It was used to rally for unity and more over safety of black people. If you have any doubt of this read about Cointelpro, War on black America you may change your mind.

So that was the first tattoo I had to now turn down. I have not had to do that before, I like the challenge of people bringing in whatever non tattoo able reference and drawing it to make a tattoo. Or using old flash as reference. I have no issues with any ones beliefs, so long as they don't take it to my door step.

We're all good on my end. I respect your decision to turn down the work, and think you did what was right for you.

As far as the Black Power thing, I know all about COINTELPRO, and similar ops...hate to say it, but I am old enough to have hung out with Fred Hampton and Mark Clark, to have argued politics with Huey Newton and Abbie Hoffman, and to have shared a bottle of wine more than once with Chi Chi Rodriguez. Not only am I old to enough to have done it, but I did. So I guess my take on that is a bit different.

But that's all ancient history. For now, as I said, far as I'm concerned, you're good people, and I've got no beef of any kind with you.

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As far as the Black Power thing, I know all about COINTELPRO, and similar ops...hate to say it, but I am old enough to have hung out with Fred Hampton and Mark Clark, to have argued politics with Huey Newton and Abbie Hoffman, and to have shared a bottle of wine more than once with Chi Chi Rodriguez. Not only am I old to enough to have done it, but I did. So I guess my take on that is a bit different.

Damn. We gotta meet IRL one day, because I'd love to talk about that with you.

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Damn. We gotta meet IRL one day, because I'd love to talk about that with you.

Be my pleasure...but you gotta come down here-they won't let me in Kanada!

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I thought Dan S was a Republican and that we "shared a moment" when we were complaining about welfare recipients about a month ago in a thread.

Shows what I know. He traded stories during Happy Hour with every influential non-White since 1962.

Did you ever share some rum with Vijay Singh while Elijah Muhammed smoked a briar pipe and told you who REALLY killed Malcolm X? What a turn of events!

I'm just kidding. Those are some cool stories. I was only breakin' balls.

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