Diehardonvhs

Artists who copy tattoos/styles

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Patton Oswalt | A CLOSED LETTER TO MYSELF ABOUT THIEVERY, HECKLING AND RAPE JOKES

I think that this sums up my feelings on this subject. Comedy, tattoos, music, houses, or what the fuck ever you are trying to create.

Directly from that article -

- "the simple fact that an uncreative person took a creative person’s work, signed their name to it, and passed it off as their own for their personal glorification, monetary benefit and career advancement. There’s no wiggle room there. Even the thieves know that, better than the dullards who are rationalizing and defending them."

Absolutely perfect. That article is brilliant.

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art is the emulation of what is what was and what will be. sometimes you wanna test yourself against what pre exists. sometimes you want to test yourself and create something new. sometiimes you wanna test yourself and try to leave a legacy. and sometimes you have to pay the bills.

name one artist that has never copied something in there life time. try naming someone that has never made money from what preexists during their career.

this thread = moot point

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art is the emulation of what is what was and what will be. sometimes you wanna test yourself against what pre exists. sometimes you want to test yourself and create something new. sometiimes you wanna test yourself and try to leave a legacy. and sometimes you have to pay the bills.

name one artist that has never copied something in there life time. try naming someone that has never made money from what preexists during their career.

this thread = moot point

All discussion is a moot point. Should all discussion end?

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art is the emulation of what is what was and what will be. sometimes you wanna test yourself against what pre exists. sometimes you want to test yourself and create something new. sometiimes you wanna test yourself and try to leave a legacy. and sometimes you have to pay the bills.

name one artist that has never copied something in there life time. try naming someone that has never made money from what preexists during their career.

this thread = moot point

I disagree completely. Using inspiration from someones work is one thing but a direct replica is another.

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All discussion is a moot point. Should all discussion end?

if youre goning to be an absolutist then yes

- - - Updated - - -

I disagree completely. Using inspiration from someones work is one thing but a direct replica is another.

i think youre missing my point. im not saying its right or wrong. im just saying it happens for many reasons and will always happen and has always happened. to judge upon it makes no sense

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On the copyright comment above -even though I don't think it's cool to straight copy somebody's tattoo - the fact remains that copying is not theft.

So let's pretend that you are a professional musician who has to pay session members, studio time, production costs and distribution costs and some wanker copies your CD and sends you this little ditty. He is taking food out of your mouth and preventing you from providing for your family.

Copying copyrighted material is not only criminal theft, it's morally corrupt and folks who do it deserve to have their asses kicked.

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im not saying its right or wrong. im just saying it happens for many reasons and will always happen and has always happened. to judge upon it makes no sense

Are you saying that because it's always going to happen there's no point in having an opinion on it or passing judgement?

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So let's pretend that you are a professional musician who has to pay session members, studio time, production costs and distribution costs and some wanker copies your CD and sends you this little ditty. He is taking food out of your mouth and preventing you from providing for your family.

Copying copyrighted material is not only criminal theft, it's morally corrupt and folks who do it deserve to have their asses kicked.

None of this relates to tattooing.

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None of this relates to tattooing.

Sure it does...if we are talking about stealing. Theft if theft. But nobody wants to talk about other kinds of theft because it might make them appear to be a hipocrite when talkin about how someone else is stealing something.

But for the sake of arguement related to tattoos, remember the guy who did the lion on that ufc guy that was suing the game maker over using his "intellectual property". All kinds of internet opinions were in support of him, but all he did was copy a lion statue (one of which we had in my house growing up which is why I recognized it). And if you looked at his portfolio there were examples of other copyright images reproduced as tattoos by him. Another example is how people got worked up about a guy who copied a nikko day of the dead girl..which happened to be a reproduction of a sylvia ji painting.

I think what @G.Uristti is saying is that everyone on the internet is making assumptions as to the reasons why someone is doing a reproduction of someone elses tattoo and there's hardly any way to tell if that opinion is accurate. I suppose when you do tattoos, you at least have a broader perspective as to how and why it happens. Eventhough it may shatter the illusion that tv and ones own personal experiences have created about tattooers being artists, sometimes people just do tattoos. I've resisted even speaking on the matter because I doubt anyones gonna get what I'm trying to say anyway.

Its probably a good thing that there's not messageboards for everyones job so that loads of outside opinions about every aspect of ones job can be debated and policed.

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I like you guys. I've only been here for two days, and I've already learned a lot about tattoos.

A question, though; where do you draw the line? I found a Mike Giant tattoo that I love and need to have (thanks to you fine folk), and I was just planning on asking the guy who does it to keep the base picture the same, but do it in his own way. I want that specific picture, but I don't want him to literally trace it. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars for him to play paint by numbers for a couple hours, y'know?

If he draws the same image, but does it in his own way, with his own style, is it still considered stealing?

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No I don't think that is stealing.. If the subject matter is the same but done differently then it's not stealing. I've seen thousands of say dragon and tiger tattoos.

I like you guys. I've only been here for two days, and I've already learned a lot about tattoos.

A question, though; where do you draw the line? I found a Mike Giant tattoo that I love and need to have (thanks to you fine folk), and I was just planning on asking the guy who does it to keep the base picture the same, but do it in his own way. I want that specific picture, but I don't want him to literally trace it. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars for him to play paint by numbers for a couple hours, y'know?

If he draws the same image, but does it in his own way, with his own style, is it still considered stealing?

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Where are you planning to get the tattoo done? Since Mike Giant isn't tattooing any more, maybe you could get to one of his recommended shops to have a Mike Giant inspired tattoo done: Mike Giant Links

I like you guys. I've only been here for two days, and I've already learned a lot about tattoos.

A question, though; where do you draw the line? I found a Mike Giant tattoo that I love and need to have (thanks to you fine folk), and I was just planning on asking the guy who does it to keep the base picture the same, but do it in his own way. I want that specific picture, but I don't want him to literally trace it. I'm not paying hundreds of dollars for him to play paint by numbers for a couple hours, y'know?

If he draws the same image, but does it in his own way, with his own style, is it still considered stealing?

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Where are you planning to get the tattoo done? Since Mike Giant isn't tattooing any more, maybe you could get to one of his recommended shops to have a Mike Giant inspired tattoo done: Mike Giant Links

Good Point Tattoos

Now, I'm not nearly as experienced with tattoos as you guys (I'm getting my first one next month) but they seem proper to me. I'd love to get down to San Fran to have one of them do it, but I turn nineteen next month. I'm not exactly rolling in cash from my electrical apprenticeship, lol, so getting there from Ontario Canada might be tricky. I dunno, maybe it'd be better to just wait till I can afford the trip and then do it. It's not like I'm short on time and I've always wanted to go down there anyway.

Also, how would you guys rate their work? The shop is literally, honest to God, a two minute walk from my house.

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Good Point Tattoos

Now, I'm not nearly as experienced with tattoos as you guys (I'm getting my first one next month) but they seem proper to me. I'd love to get down to San Fran to have one of them do it, but I turn nineteen next month. I'm not exactly rolling in cash from my electrical apprenticeship, lol, so getting there from Ontario Canada might be tricky. I dunno, maybe it'd be better to just wait till I can afford the trip and then do it. It's not like I'm short on time and I've always wanted to go down there anyway.

Also, how would you guys rate their work? The shop is literally, honest to God, a two minute walk from my house.

Cory Ferguson's tattoos are so awesome. He doesn't seem to be what you're going for stylistically, but a quick look through the shop's website that you linked to there shows some really good work. I'd get tattooed there.

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Are you saying that because it's always going to happen there's no point in having an opinion on it or passing judgement?

I don't want to speak for this person. But I do believe there are many gray areas. There are so many reasons why artists might 'copy' or replicate..You can have all the opinions that you want. But you also never really know why the artist chose to do it.

Most people get wrapped into 'right and wrong' in life and don't realize there's more to it than what we assume...

I started off by thinking it was wrong, but discussions like this made me realize...if a client came to me and wanted a piece from an artist I look up to. I would love to do it just because in a way you feel part of the artist & their work.

But of course in no way I would claim it as my own...

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How does copyrighting work? I'm on a diamond/gemstone/jewelry forum and there are huge throwdowns about copying/replicating/inspired by pieces. You might have 10 different rings, they all look completely 100% identical other than the center stone and they're all from different vendors/designers. One of the girls had an antique ring she found at a pawn shop, she posted it, someone liked it and had a replica made. It's not 100% the same, but close. The girl who had the antique ring fuh-reeeeeaked out-this was clear back in 2008 and it's *still* not allowed to be mentioned on the board and has become "the ring that shall not be named". I know tattoos aren't rings, but they're an accessory, I feel. I designed a ring entirely myself, and have come across a replica, tho mine is waaaay better. Does a person have to go thru certain channels to make everything they make, be it jewelry or tattoos, if it's their original creation, copyrighted?? I don't understand.

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How does copyrighting work? I'm on a diamond/gemstone/jewelry forum and there are huge throwdowns about copying/replicating/inspired by pieces. You might have 10 different rings, they all look completely 100% identical other than the center stone and they're all from different vendors/designers. One of the girls had an antique ring she found at a pawn shop, she posted it, someone liked it and had a replica made. It's not 100% the same, but close. The girl who had the antique ring fuh-reeeeeaked out-this was clear back in 2008 and it's *still* not allowed to be mentioned on the board and has become "the ring that shall not be named". I know tattoos aren't rings, but they're an accessory, I feel. I designed a ring entirely myself, and have come across a replica, tho mine is waaaay better. Does a person have to go thru certain channels to make everything they make, be it jewelry or tattoos, if it's their original creation, copyrighted?? I don't understand.

Calling a tattoo an accessory is blasphemy.

It's so much more than that.

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So let's pretend that you are a professional musician who has to pay session members, studio time, production costs and distribution costs and some wanker copies your CD and sends you this little ditty. He is taking food out of your mouth and preventing you from providing for your family.

Copying copyrighted material is not only criminal theft, it's morally corrupt and folks who do it deserve to have their asses kicked.

If I walk in to a record store and choose to spend my $20 on a Justin Bieber CD instead of the new Bluejax CD, am I "taking food from your mouth" or am I simply choosing not to give you food? Because one of them is clearly theft and one of them clearly is not. If I buy the Bieber CD (or don't) and just download yours, your situation is the same - no one has taken anything from you.

Copying someone's tattoo almost certainly deserves a good ass kicking. Depending on your moral system, it may indeed be a corrupt thing to do. But it is not theft, and though breaking copyright is considered a crime, it should not be.

Let's look further at what extending copyright to works of art/craft like tattooing would do. Under current copyright law, protection lasts for the life of the artist plus 70 years. If that's how it was back in the day then none of us would be able be wearing Pharaoh's Horses tattoos if the original tattooer didn't license the image. And even he wouldn't have been able to tattoo it without the permission of the original artist (John Herring Sr. [maybe] for you trivia buffs). What if someone copyrighted the idea of putting a dagger through the head of an animal? After that it could be a particular style of rendering lady heads or roses. Next thing you know the only option for all of us is text tattoos of bible verses and portraits of our own kids. And infinity symbols. Thanks a lot, copyright.

Further reading on a bit higher level than the simple (but catchy) ditty in my youtube post previous: Against Intellectual Property.

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It is unethical and perhaps immoral to "steal" someone else's tattoo design -- particularly if you are tracing it and/or passing it off as your own. Unless it is a piece of flash that you have purchased (or traded for or received as a gift). Certain designs are so old or common or general that they can reasonably be said to have fallen into the "public domain," e.g., Day of the Dead skull, Rock of Ages, etc. Of course, artists with their own personal style have put their "stamp" on things, but copying this can be said to be paying homage -- imitation being the sincerest form of flattery and all that. So far no one has been able to copyright a tattoo design and those who have tried -- like the Mike Tyson/Hangover case -- have settled out of court as far as I know. Whether this is a good or bad thing is open to debate. In short, no copyright -- and certainly no laws -- have been broken, and no one has filed a successful civil suit against anyone or proven monetary damages in a court of law. Theft, morally or ethically -- maybe. Legal, no. The rest is semantics.

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If I walk in to a record store and choose to spend my $20 on a Justin Bieber CD instead of the new Bluejax CD, am I "taking food from your mouth" or am I simply choosing not to give you food? Because one of them is clearly theft and one of them clearly is not. If I buy the Bieber CD and just download yours, ....

Therein lies the flaw in your logic. If you illegally download mine it is exactly the same thing as if you pocketed mine at the store instead of paying for it. That download didn't just "appear" out of thin air. Arguments against Intellectual Property Laws are childish and futile. The world ain't no sugar plum fairy, giving here to give you all the candy you want.

As pointed out earlier, unless a person finds a way to copyright a tattoo, this sidebar has nothing to do with this forum and the conversation is closed.

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A number of years ago a tattooer here in Portland did a tattoo on one of the trailblazers. That player had a contract with a local company called Nike. Pretty soon the players tattoo was being used for shirts, and even window decals. Tattooer sued, settled out of court, for years I was behind this guy getting his money for Nike ripping him off. That is until recently when I was shown the design in a Dover Clip art book you can buy at any bookstore for $9.

It just showed me that a lot of the times I don't really know the origin of design, and people don't really create everything they tattoo. There are definitely a few examples on this thread of people shamelessly ripping off tattoos, or at least to the best of my knowledge that is what I perceive it to be. I just think iin general I see people getting called out for stuff neither person created and people claiming stuff they didn't do.

Do we owe the guy who did the flower exploding birds the first time royalites, what about the first script carpe diem? Even the best shops do dumb stuff that people bring off the internet, I have seen it with my two eyes. I just wonder where we stop giving credit and start. If it's a dumb tattoo or insignificant tattoo is okay? If it's not done by someone with recognition it's okay? If you can do it better it's okay? Is it okay as long as they aren't a tattooer. I don't know? But saying theft is theft is quite an understatement.

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Are you saying that because it's always going to happen there's no point in having an opinion on it or passing judgement?

essentially i am. but of course you can have an opinion and in actuality we definitely should but, we should realize that its a point you cant hold onto too dearly. tattooing is based on copying and as the industry builds its almost essential to do so, so there is a sound foundation to build upon. its as f'ed up to copy and it is essential to do so all at the same time.

i dont like being copied but, in the end, if you copy me that just means i win. then of course you have to ask yourself about those who copy the men and women in this industry who are no longer with us. is it any better to copy the flash they left behind then it is to copy those that are alive?

every tattooer should know there is a difference between being an artist and a craftsmen. they should also recognize the fine line they walk between them. the non tattooers should stop putting people on a pedestal and carrying a cross for the justice they seek. no one has any copy rights on anything they tattoo. and things that are put on line are in the public domain unless otherwise stated. when do you think the last time any tattooer filled out the paper work on a tattoo they did. i would be shocked to find out that anyone files those papers(copyright) on their tattoos. oh and the fact that once you sell the design to the client by putting it on their skin, you essentially sold them the rights of the art, and if you dont state in the release that they cant use the art for anything else and you eventually do, they might actually have a sound case against you(the artist) for copyright infringement. does everyone see where this can all go if we start getting technical or am i alone on this.

so yes its f'ed up but at the end of the day is it something you really can do something about? can you tell a tattooer that sees themselves as a pure craftsmen that theyre wrong for copying? can you call the tattooer that fancies themselves the artist that they are dumb for not having a deeper contract? ahhh the never ending cycle of questions that this topic can bring :)

- - - Updated - - -

^^^^^ kinda ranty and run on... so sorry

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