AverageJer

Thanks for posting (and for the link to the previous conversation). This is an interesting topic to me. I think many images we enjoy today are ultimately appropriated from somewhere. There are always going to be lines and we all will have to draw our own. Very few here, I would imagine, would get a tattoo of a white person in "blackface."
For me American Indian imagery tattoos has some parallels to the ongoing team mascot issue. I'm not a big internet arguer so I'm not wanting to get into all that here other than to say it bothers me personally and therefore getting an American Indian image tattoo crosses my personal line. That's not to say that another thoughtful person couldn't come to a different conclusion on this but I do appreciate this kind of discussion as a means to encourage thought and dialogue.
I'm more conflicted about religious imagery for tattoos. For example I am attracted to the idea of getting some kind of Buddha tattoo someday. I like the images and, as a recovering Catholic, I am drawn to many of the ideals of the religion. Are these good or bad reasons to get a tattoo? How about a Hindu image of which there are many that make amazingly awesome tattoos but I know basically nothing about the religion itself. If I read a book or two would that be enough? Am I overthinking this? Probably, I overthink most things.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation. Now it's time to get back to my secular Easter celebration focusing on bunnies, eggs, chocolate and brunchy food.

Thanks for posting (and for the link to the previous conversation). This is an interesting topic to me. I think many images we enjoy today are ultimately appropriated from somewhere. There are always going to be lines and we all will have to draw our own. Very few here, I would imagine, would get a tattoo of a white person in "blackface."
For me American Indian imagery tattoos has some parallels to the ongoing team mascot issue. I'm not a big internet arguer so I'm not wanting to get into all that here other than to say it bothers me personally and therefore getting an American Indian image tattoo crosses my personal line. That's not to say that another thoughtful person couldn't come to a different conclusion on this but I do appreciate this kind of discussion as a means to encourage thought and dialogue.
I'm more conflicted about religious imagery for tattoos. For example I am attracted to the idea of getting some kind of Buddha tattoo someday. I like the images and, as a recovering Catholic, I am drawn to many of the ideals of the religion. Are these good or bad reasons to get a tattoo? How about a Hindu image of which there are many that make amazingly awesome tattoos but I know basically nothing about the religion itself. If I read a book or two would that be enough? Am I overthinking this? Probably, I overthink most things.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation. Now it's time to get back to my secular Easter celebration focusing on bunnies, eggs, chocolate and brunchy food.

This whole thread is about this topic as well:
http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/general-tattoo-discussion/3303-how-do-you-feel-about-tattoo-blogs.html

Thanks for posting (and for the link to the previous conversation). This is an interesting topic to me. I think many images we enjoy today are ultimately appropriated from somewhere. There are always going to be lines and we all will have to draw our own. Very few here, I would imagine, would get a tattoo of a white person in "blackface."
For me American Indian imagery tattoos has some parallels to the ongoing team mascot issue. I'm not a big internet arguer so I'm not wanting to get into all that here other than to say it bothers me personally and therefore getting an American Indian image tattoo crosses my personal line. That's not to say that another thoughtful person couldn't come to a different conclusion on this but I do appreciate this kind of discussion as a means to encourage thought and dialogue.
I'm more conflicted about religious imagery for tattoos. For example I am attracted to the idea of getting some kind of Buddha tattoo someday. I like the images and, as a recovering Catholic, I am drawn to many of the ideals of the religion. Are these good or bad reasons to get a tattoo? How about a Hindu image of which there are many that make amazingly awesome tattoos but I know basically nothing about the religion itself. If I read a book or two would that be enough? Am I overthinking this? Probably, I overthink most things.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation. Now it's time to get back to my secular Easter celebration focusing on bunnies, eggs, chocolate and brunchy food.

Thanks for posting (and for the link to the previous conversation). This is an interesting topic to me. I think many images we enjoy today are ultimately appropriated from somewhere. There are always going to be lines and we all will have to draw our own. Very few here, I would imagine, would get a tattoo of a white person in "blackface."
For me American Indian imagery tattoos has some parallels to the ongoing team mascot issue. I'm not a big internet arguer so I'm not wanting to get into all that here other than to say it bothers me personally and therefore getting an American Indian image tattoo crosses my personal line. That's not to say that another thoughtful person couldn't come to a different conclusion on this but I do appreciate this kind of discussion as a means to encourage thought and dialogue.
I'm more conflicted about religious imagery for tattoos. For example I am attracted to the idea of getting some kind of Buddha tattoo someday. I like the images and, as a recovering Catholic, I am drawn to many of the ideals of the religion. Are these good or bad reasons to get a tattoo? How about a Hindu image of which there are many that make amazingly awesome tattoos but I know basically nothing about the religion itself. If I read a book or two would that be enough? Am I overthinking this? Probably, I overthink most things.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation. Now it's time to get back to my secular Easter celebration focusing on bunnies, eggs, chocolate and brunchy food.

Thanks for posting (and for the link to the previous conversation). This is an interesting topic to me. I think many images we enjoy today are ultimately appropriated from somewhere. There are always going to be lines and we all will have to draw our own. Very few here, I would imagine, would get a tattoo of a white person in "blackface."
For me American Indian imagery tattoos has some parallels to the ongoing team mascot issue. I'm not a big internet arguer so I'm not wanting to get into all that here other than to say it bothers me personally and therefore getting an American Indian image tattoo crosses my personal line. That's not to say that another thoughtful person couldn't come to a different conclusion on this but I do appreciate this kind of discussion as a means to encourage thought and dialogue.
I'm more conflicted about religious imagery for tattoos. For example I am attracted to the idea of getting some kind of Buddha tattoo someday. I like the images and, as a recovering Catholic, I am drawn to many of the ideals of the religion. Are these good or bad reasons to get a tattoo? How about a Hindu image of which there are many that make amazingly awesome tattoos but I know basically nothing about the religion itself. If I read a book or two would that be enough? Am I overthinking this? Probably, I overthink most things.
Anyway, thanks for the interesting conversation. Now it's time to get back to my secular Easter celebration focusing on bunnies, eggs, chocolate and brunchy food.

fyi there are some opinions on this subject in this old thread: http://www.lastsparrowtattoo.com/forum/tattoo-designs-books-flash/1845-native-american-tattoos-designs.html

Rather than rush into it, why don't you take your time and get the rest of the sleeve done at a later date? Your arm will still be there later (hopefully).

clearly we aren't the target audience.

Yep, my wife, who has plenty of tattoos, just got her ears pierced for the first time. We went to our usual shop and made an appointment with the piercer, who we had seen around but didn't really know. He knew his craft and went about it in a very professional and serious way. All and all it was a great experience.
Also, how many 30 something women can say they have gotten more than 10 tattoos before even getting their ears pierced. It's just one of many ways that my wife is unique I suppose.

why are you shouting?

I'm always amazed by the awesome tattoos that are posted in this thread, I thought I'd have a go myself. Apologies for flashing so much of my underwear.
This was done by Paul Dobleman while doing a guest spot at Frith Street.

By Mike Rubendall at Kingsave NYC. Still need to add some patterns on the veil. Any suggestions?

Interesting thread and in many ways frustrating. This quote from your mom made me smile for some reason. Enjoy your new tattoo, I'm jealous.

Pure trollage , just stop man .

You are a strange one.

I hate to pile on @deadsp0t, but I do want to make a couple points. I've heard you say "silence is consent" on this and other threads, and I don't think you realize what a loaded term this is. Google "silence" "consent" and "rape," and you'll see what I mean. Just in case you're wondering what all this outrage is about. All that stuff about Rosa Parks/MLK I'll chalk up to a bad analogy and leave it at that. Except to say that when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
@Zillah, I'm a big burly guy and I probably would've done the exact same thing in that situation: bit my tongue, get my tattoo, and got the f*ck out of there (but no tip). So many ways that situation could have ended badly for you, sometimes it's smart to keep your mouth shut.
@Bunny Switchblade, not to get off-topic or pick a fight here, but I'm getting a little sick of hearing this particular sentiment. I hear what you're saying, but put it this way: there are dives and fancy wine bars, and the existence of the latter shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of the former. Grungy old-school street shops are awesome -- and I hope they never go away -- but the private/custom/boutique-type ones exist because there's a market for it. Speaking as a non-tattooer, it seems to me that everyone who wants a tattoo should be able to get one, how and where they want it. And that people from all walks of life getting tattoos is good for business – even if it's the dreaded "soccer mom" getting a butterfly on her ankle. It's like with bands when people say, "I was into so-and-so before they were cool." Why should I give a f*ck if what I like is popular or not? Bands want to sell records and make money so they can keep making art. Tattooers do too.

@Zillah, I'll bring this back to topic.
When I got my flapper on my chest, the tattoo artist basically had to touch right above/ on my breast (not like fondling but just had to stretch out the skin on my chest, etc.) and while it was mildly uncomfortable for me, it was nothing compared to what happened to you. The only acknowledgement that it might even be a bit awkward was his sorry as he first touched me. Nothing too serious but I was 19 and a bit shy.
Now as for the silence as consent... highly disagree with that statement. Even the examples with Rosa Parks and MLK are WTF moments. Silence is never consent, never acceptance. Silence is taught, is a self preservation technique when there is a threat to speaking out. I was silent, when I was teased/bullied by girls who I knew could beat my ass if I said what I really thought about them. I was silent when I knew I would get slapped by my parents if I said what I wanted to. I was silent as groups of men talked horrible things about the way I look and what I should do sexually because I am so ugly to them and therefore desperate.
I only ever speak out when I know that I cannot bear it anymore, when I am willing to take the risk of bodily or psychological harm, or when I know I have a fighting chance. Silence does not mean I consent to my treatment, it means I am too afraid of the consequences to speak up.
and that's why deadspot missed the point.

Wow.
When I made the original thread, I had no idea that it would turn out to be a big debate; I was thinking that it would be therapeutic for myself and for anyone else that had experienced something like that, to share the anecdote, and encourage others to share theirs.
About speaking up- that would have been great, if I had felt safe to do so. I think that now that I am 12 years older, more mature, more confident, and more assertive, I would have -at the very least- told him afterwards that I didn't appreciate that bullshit thank you very much. The situation I was in though, as a young woman, alone in a tattoo shop with a guy named 'Graham' who worked at 'Graham's Tattoo Studio' (now long closed), I didn't feel okay. I felt afraid. So I didn't. Thank you to those that got that, and wrote eloquent responses.
It's all very well to say that I should be tougher, or stronger, or more assertive, or be able to fly, or whatever... but I was who I was, and I think that tattoos should be for everyone. I don't think there should be certain class of people who tattooing should be limited to, e.g. those who can 'take it like a man' or whatever, although I understand that attitude, because some women have had to fight long and hard to be treated as equals in a male-dominated field.
Silence never equals consent when there is a power imbalance. The person in the more powerful position is responsible to ensure that their behaviour is welcome. This guy could have made a number of jokes, even some lewd jokes, that were not about my body, which I may not have enjoyed but would not have been offended by.
The 'large cohesive upper arm tattoo' (@HaydenRose ;) ) that I am getting in a week or so is being done by a professional who I have met and had a lengthy consultation with, who works with others in an open studio, and comes highly recommended. I have a bit more tattoo nous now. But for those young ladies (and men) who go into a studio and point to something and say, "I want that one", or with less sense who get upside down tattoos, or pop culture references that will disappear in 5 minutes, or whatever, I want them to have an enjoyable, safe experience that they can think of fondly and get lasered off later.

I promise you that you are not on the side of Rosa Parks and MLK in this conversation, and that it's genuinely one of the most offensive things I have ever read on this message board to see you make this comparison. Rosa Parks and MLK were tireless in their articulation of the power imbalances that exist in our society, and the ways in which dominant groups silence marginalized ones. Pretending that their resistance is equated with "always speak up" with no analysis of power asymmetry, structural misogyny, and the fact that women HAVE SCARY FUCKING EXPERIENCES TALKING BACK TO CREEPY MEN is both painfully stupid and morally appalling. And that is the last thing I will say here, because I gave up internet arguments as a new year's resolution two years ago. But I just could not let this go.
PS it gives me faith in this board to see so many like-minded folks calling this out, and not just women. <3 you guys.

I feel that's part of the problem of you totally not getting it - how she reacted or didn't react to the sexual comment during a session is not up for our judgement! She was sharing her experience and handled it the best way she knew at the time. Your comment that "silence is consent" seriously gave innuendo that a person is asking for more comments if she doesn't say anything. Everyone is different, sure, maybe you would have said something, but stop getting all judge-y to those that don't. It's complicated, especially because it is sexual in nature and the person on the receiving end of the comment was in a vulnerable state.
I think all woman have had some kind of sexual comment at some point in their lives. I know I have, however, I don't have a blanket policy how I react - it depends, where, the context, the comment, the situation. I've never had sexually slanted comment during a tattoo session and I've been getting tattooed since the early 90's. So if shit like that is happening in a shop, that is what's wrong, not how the woman responds to it.

I feel like you are really missing the point.

The problem is that when you are in a vulnerable position, it is pretty difficult to speak up. Calling misogynistic behaviour out rarely ends with the perpetrator apologising and reflecting on what they've said/done. At best, you might get a patronising 'lighten up' type response, at worst an aggressive response.
"Silence is consent" is victim-blaming bullshit. This is far more offensive than I think you realise, and is scarily close to blaming her for what clothes she was wearing.

Silence is not consent! I can't believe I am debating this!
Just because one person would say or do something, doesn't mean some else in a similar situation would or could - that's ridiculous! Everyone has different coping mechanisms to get through a uncomfortable and vulnerable situation. She did the best she could, she did not invite those comments, nor is she bound to school that jackass about proper behavior towards women.