davelang

Another half-breed right here. But I'm from Alaska, so none of our imagery has come up in this conversation, but here you go anyway...I did a fair amount of northwest native (aka Haida or more accurately formline) style tribal during the first 3/4 of my tattoo career while I was in washington state, but I moved back to Alaska four years ago and really started to research the style. I started working with a local carver and studied on paper first, eventually painting and working my way up into a carving apprenticeship. I know this style is usually a pain for a lot of tattooers and I understand. When someone brings a design of this style in and it is tattoo-able, it's usually still a lot of work and doesn't feel too rewarding until you are done. But after studying it, I love designing formline from the the ground up and tattooing it. I know this is pretty specialized and leans more towards polynesian tribal than whip shaded indian girl heads or navajo designs that are (or were) on trend for clothing and fashion, but some things are the same for all of those different variations on American Native Art.
When I see stuff in formline style, now I know right away if the tattooer found it, had to change parts for the tattoo and make up shapes, collage together a few different designs or bullshit something entirely. I image its what a Polynesian tribal artist sees when they look at designs cut and pasted by tattooers going strictly off of visual aesthetic and mixing designs regardless of meaning. "Nice half sleeve, so looking at this, from the parts I understand, your people are the shark fishermen of the mountains? That doesn't make sense".
At least now, I feel like I'm learning the language of it enough to design with respect to the culture and not have to worry about if it belongs to a tribe or clan or would offend anybody. It was one of the first questions I asked when I got here "what can I and can't I draw for people?" and was assured by my teachers that an eagle I draw does not belong to the Eagle clan, unless I were to directly copy a house front design, drum, blanket, etc that has been passed down and I appropriated the design without the right to do so. If I draw it and build it from scratch, it is my gift to give to the recipient. And within this style there is plenty of possible abstraction to go even further away from anything that wound be considered disrespectful or clan property.
How do the Native artists that I've talked to feel about people around the world getting their cultures artwork tattooed on them? They are fucking stoked. Especially since most of them have been commissioned by their friends and family to design tattoos for them. Just like any artists, they appreciate when it's done right and the medium and design work as one, they hate it when the design is great, but tattooed badly or tattooed well and badly designed. And I think, not to speak for all Alaska Native artists, but I know I'd rather see the art on as many people as possible, especially if I get to design it. I'd rather make the best native tattoos I can on anybody that not do it as much because of some cultural guilt. I know that this is a very specific corner of Native art, but I figured I'd chime in, because I was pretty cautious about the rules and stuff when I began to study. I've been lucky enough to design a fair amount of custom formline and even tattoo some of my carving designs. Lots of times the designs have stories, like the carving of the fish that I got to tattoo. When I carved that design I was illustrating a specific story about how Raven gave the Bullhead fish it's shape. If you look, the body is a Raven head. I won't bore you with the story, but when the customer came in who got the tattoo he asked "do you do that local native art stuff?" I said "'yeah, I carved that stuff right there", he saw that carving and went "that's bad ass. can I do that, but green instead of red?" and I was happy to give it to him. We didn't get all spiritual about the story and he was happy to get it because he thought it looked cool and he wanted some Alaskan art to remember the years he spent here. No problem, buddy. Have a seat.

@Kahlan ......find a good shop....go inside and tell them you want to help with the shop in your free time (scrubbing the toilets, taking out the trash....sweeping the floors....etc.) AND tell them you'll do it for free!
Don't even mention you want to tattoo....and definitely that you are doing it at home....even on practice skin!!!
Put away your machines doll....it really is disrespectful to those who have earned the right to tattoo the proper way.
For over 20+ years i had been getting tattooed and never ever thought about picking up a machine to tattoo someone because of the respect I had for my friends who tattooed and just out of respect for the craft. One day i went into a shop while i was on a "tattoo road trip" and a guy told me he'd "trade tattoos" with me! I explained that i did not tattoo and why i was against this! He told me he had learned to tattoo from bob shaw on the pike in california after the vietnam war and had 40 years in the biz and he wanted me to tattoo him. I was really worried what some of my friends would think about me tattooing him but I figured he had earned the right to tell me it was okay to tattoo him....so i did!
You may think it is silly of me to have been scared of what my peers would think....but it's because I respect them.....and they respect me!
I didn't want to loose their respect because that is a very hard thing to gain back!
You can learn the way you are learning.....BUT....to truly have the respect of your peers you should learn the proper way!
And to have the respect of your peers in this craft.....is one of the highest honors there is!
I'm not busting your balls doll......just trying to give you a different perspective on why you should learn the right way!
I personally think you should be offered an apprenticeship....not ask for one!
And why do I suggest you should offer your services to a shop for free and work like a dog for them for free???
Because you will never learn the proper way to tattoo until you earn the trust and respect first....then you learn to tattoo!
It took me 20+ years to be offered an apprenticeship that was the right fit for me!
My answer to the original question in this thread is....yes....there do still need to be apprentices!
But not because you need free help or because the shop is slow and you need the 5-10k you can get for teaching someone!
It's because the craft needs quality people in it that are willing to earn it and one day pass it on!
An apprenticeship is not about learning to tattoo....it is about learning the business as well....at least it used to be!
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i had the pleasure of sitting down with Zeke at the Philly Convention and the world is definitely a much more wonderful place with him in it!!!

Really? So you would happily give something that you've spent your whole life (or large part of) striving to perfect, your means of providing for your family and whatever else to any random person that asked for it? If yes, good luck to you. You know what my answer would be? Go fuck yourself. I don't tattoo, or have any desire to tattoo but if someone came up and asked for my life on a plate I'd be a lot less civilised and nice than most people, especially if that person was a complete stranger.

Another half-breed right here. But I'm from Alaska, so none of our imagery has come up in this conversation, but here you go anyway...I did a fair amount of northwest native (aka Haida or more accurately formline) style tribal during the first 3/4 of my tattoo career while I was in washington state, but I moved back to Alaska four years ago and really started to research the style. I started working with a local carver and studied on paper first, eventually painting and working my way up into a carving apprenticeship. I know this style is usually a pain for a lot of tattooers and I understand. When someone brings a design of this style in and it is tattoo-able, it's usually still a lot of work and doesn't feel too rewarding until you are done. But after studying it, I love designing formline from the the ground up and tattooing it. I know this is pretty specialized and leans more towards polynesian tribal than whip shaded indian girl heads or navajo designs that are (or were) on trend for clothing and fashion, but some things are the same for all of those different variations on American Native Art.
When I see stuff in formline style, now I know right away if the tattooer found it, had to change parts for the tattoo and make up shapes, collage together a few different designs or bullshit something entirely. I image its what a Polynesian tribal artist sees when they look at designs cut and pasted by tattooers going strictly off of visual aesthetic and mixing designs regardless of meaning. "Nice half sleeve, so looking at this, from the parts I understand, your people are the shark fishermen of the mountains? That doesn't make sense".
At least now, I feel like I'm learning the language of it enough to design with respect to the culture and not have to worry about if it belongs to a tribe or clan or would offend anybody. It was one of the first questions I asked when I got here "what can I and can't I draw for people?" and was assured by my teachers that an eagle I draw does not belong to the Eagle clan, unless I were to directly copy a house front design, drum, blanket, etc that has been passed down and I appropriated the design without the right to do so. If I draw it and build it from scratch, it is my gift to give to the recipient. And within this style there is plenty of possible abstraction to go even further away from anything that wound be considered disrespectful or clan property.
How do the Native artists that I've talked to feel about people around the world getting their cultures artwork tattooed on them? They are fucking stoked. Especially since most of them have been commissioned by their friends and family to design tattoos for them. Just like any artists, they appreciate when it's done right and the medium and design work as one, they hate it when the design is great, but tattooed badly or tattooed well and badly designed. And I think, not to speak for all Alaska Native artists, but I know I'd rather see the art on as many people as possible, especially if I get to design it. I'd rather make the best native tattoos I can on anybody that not do it as much because of some cultural guilt. I know that this is a very specific corner of Native art, but I figured I'd chime in, because I was pretty cautious about the rules and stuff when I began to study. I've been lucky enough to design a fair amount of custom formline and even tattoo some of my carving designs. Lots of times the designs have stories, like the carving of the fish that I got to tattoo. When I carved that design I was illustrating a specific story about how Raven gave the Bullhead fish it's shape. If you look, the body is a Raven head. I won't bore you with the story, but when the customer came in who got the tattoo he asked "do you do that local native art stuff?" I said "'yeah, I carved that stuff right there", he saw that carving and went "that's bad ass. can I do that, but green instead of red?" and I was happy to give it to him. We didn't get all spiritual about the story and he was happy to get it because he thought it looked cool and he wanted some Alaskan art to remember the years he spent here. No problem, buddy. Have a seat.

"My (in-progress) sleeve is an interpretation of the Raven myths, and because it's being done by Thomas Hooper it's interpreted through a sort of hermetic lens with some sacred geometry, Ernst Hackel references, and so on. The eye of the raven is referenced directly from Bill Reid's drawing on the cover of the book The Raven Steals the Light. I'm thrilled with it. I've been also thinking of one day getting a gagiid mask, maybe done sort of in the style of a hannya. I'm still figuring that one out though."
That sounds rad! Hope to see those tattoos one day. I'm also in love with american traditional and had Chad Koeplinger put a raven head with a sun it's mouth on my hand at the 2011 SFO convention. (I'm not sure I posted your quote the proper way, I'm still figuring this computer stuff out). I see tons of room for interpreting the stories and legends over a variety of styles. Stories could be illustrated like japanese style interpretations of their legends, broken down and fit within the style of american traditional like Chad did for me and explored in the abstraction of form line tribal, but taken more in the large scale tribal style of the europeans... I'm excited to explore these in the future.

"My (in-progress) sleeve is an interpretation of the Raven myths, and because it's being done by Thomas Hooper it's interpreted through a sort of hermetic lens with some sacred geometry, Ernst Hackel references, and so on. The eye of the raven is referenced directly from Bill Reid's drawing on the cover of the book The Raven Steals the Light. I'm thrilled with it. I've been also thinking of one day getting a gagiid mask, maybe done sort of in the style of a hannya. I'm still figuring that one out though."
That sounds rad! Hope to see those tattoos one day. I'm also in love with american traditional and had Chad Koeplinger put a raven head with a sun it's mouth on my hand at the 2011 SFO convention. (I'm not sure I posted your quote the proper way, I'm still figuring this computer stuff out). I see tons of room for interpreting the stories and legends over a variety of styles. Stories could be illustrated like japanese style interpretations of their legends, broken down and fit within the style of american traditional like Chad did for me and explored in the abstraction of form line tribal, but taken more in the large scale tribal style of the europeans... I'm excited to explore these in the future.

If he specializes in the style, then he will probably have great reference. As a tattooer, I tell people to bring in any reference they want if it is going to help me see what they are after, but not worry about having to assemble the tattoo for me, just show me things they like. But if he's known for japanese, he probably has a good library on the subject so bringing in a googled koi or dragon might be a little redundant, unless you are showing them a specific element. Even if you are looking to show the artist specific elements that you'd like incorporate, the best place to start (especially if they are known for a specific style) would be their own portfolio. Of course, you're not trying to have them duplicate things they've already done, but with japanese tattooing for example, you can always show them that you like the way the subject matter interacts with the background on a particular tattoo, or a color combo that catches your eye, or a common element like water or flames or something.

@davelang Great post, man.
I came across something really interesting when reading up about Bill Reid and formline drawing, which is that a lot of what we see in terms of carvings, jewellery, and paintings originated from Reid's study of traditional Haida tattoos:
So, in a sense, tattooing these designs is really taking it full-circle. There are a few really cool things online about Haida tattoos as well, like this: Haida Tattoo - The Bill Reid Centre - Simon Fraser University
I grew up on the West Coast of Canada, and I love this style of art, but as a whitey I have a hard time getting it as-is on me so I've been trying to find ways to take some of what I find powerful about Haida art, as well as myth and legend, and interpret it in a way that doesn't feel so appropriative. My (in-progress) sleeve is an interpretation of the Raven myths, and because it's being done by Thomas Hooper it's interpreted through a sort of hermetic lens with some sacred geometry, Ernst Hackel references, and so on. The eye of the raven is referenced directly from Bill Reid's drawing on the cover of the book The Raven Steals the Light. I'm thrilled with it. I've been also thinking of one day getting a gagiid mask, maybe done sort of in the style of a hannya. I'm still figuring that one out though.
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And just because I love to geek out on this stuff, here's a picture of a print I bought last summer by an artist named Jonathan Erickson. From what I understand, he's mostly working in jewellery right now, but the guy at the gallery said that he's also done tattoo designs...kind of figures that I'd be drawn to art done by a guy who also designs tattoos. Anyway, I think it's super cool. I need to get it properly framed still.

Nathan Kostechko

Another half-breed right here. But I'm from Alaska, so none of our imagery has come up in this conversation, but here you go anyway...I did a fair amount of northwest native (aka Haida or more accurately formline) style tribal during the first 3/4 of my tattoo career while I was in washington state, but I moved back to Alaska four years ago and really started to research the style. I started working with a local carver and studied on paper first, eventually painting and working my way up into a carving apprenticeship. I know this style is usually a pain for a lot of tattooers and I understand. When someone brings a design of this style in and it is tattoo-able, it's usually still a lot of work and doesn't feel too rewarding until you are done. But after studying it, I love designing formline from the the ground up and tattooing it. I know this is pretty specialized and leans more towards polynesian tribal than whip shaded indian girl heads or navajo designs that are (or were) on trend for clothing and fashion, but some things are the same for all of those different variations on American Native Art.
When I see stuff in formline style, now I know right away if the tattooer found it, had to change parts for the tattoo and make up shapes, collage together a few different designs or bullshit something entirely. I image its what a Polynesian tribal artist sees when they look at designs cut and pasted by tattooers going strictly off of visual aesthetic and mixing designs regardless of meaning. "Nice half sleeve, so looking at this, from the parts I understand, your people are the shark fishermen of the mountains? That doesn't make sense".
At least now, I feel like I'm learning the language of it enough to design with respect to the culture and not have to worry about if it belongs to a tribe or clan or would offend anybody. It was one of the first questions I asked when I got here "what can I and can't I draw for people?" and was assured by my teachers that an eagle I draw does not belong to the Eagle clan, unless I were to directly copy a house front design, drum, blanket, etc that has been passed down and I appropriated the design without the right to do so. If I draw it and build it from scratch, it is my gift to give to the recipient. And within this style there is plenty of possible abstraction to go even further away from anything that wound be considered disrespectful or clan property.
How do the Native artists that I've talked to feel about people around the world getting their cultures artwork tattooed on them? They are fucking stoked. Especially since most of them have been commissioned by their friends and family to design tattoos for them. Just like any artists, they appreciate when it's done right and the medium and design work as one, they hate it when the design is great, but tattooed badly or tattooed well and badly designed. And I think, not to speak for all Alaska Native artists, but I know I'd rather see the art on as many people as possible, especially if I get to design it. I'd rather make the best native tattoos I can on anybody that not do it as much because of some cultural guilt. I know that this is a very specific corner of Native art, but I figured I'd chime in, because I was pretty cautious about the rules and stuff when I began to study. I've been lucky enough to design a fair amount of custom formline and even tattoo some of my carving designs. Lots of times the designs have stories, like the carving of the fish that I got to tattoo. When I carved that design I was illustrating a specific story about how Raven gave the Bullhead fish it's shape. If you look, the body is a Raven head. I won't bore you with the story, but when the customer came in who got the tattoo he asked "do you do that local native art stuff?" I said "'yeah, I carved that stuff right there", he saw that carving and went "that's bad ass. can I do that, but green instead of red?" and I was happy to give it to him. We didn't get all spiritual about the story and he was happy to get it because he thought it looked cool and he wanted some Alaskan art to remember the years he spent here. No problem, buddy. Have a seat.

Another half-breed right here. But I'm from Alaska, so none of our imagery has come up in this conversation, but here you go anyway...I did a fair amount of northwest native (aka Haida or more accurately formline) style tribal during the first 3/4 of my tattoo career while I was in washington state, but I moved back to Alaska four years ago and really started to research the style. I started working with a local carver and studied on paper first, eventually painting and working my way up into a carving apprenticeship. I know this style is usually a pain for a lot of tattooers and I understand. When someone brings a design of this style in and it is tattoo-able, it's usually still a lot of work and doesn't feel too rewarding until you are done. But after studying it, I love designing formline from the the ground up and tattooing it. I know this is pretty specialized and leans more towards polynesian tribal than whip shaded indian girl heads or navajo designs that are (or were) on trend for clothing and fashion, but some things are the same for all of those different variations on American Native Art.
When I see stuff in formline style, now I know right away if the tattooer found it, had to change parts for the tattoo and make up shapes, collage together a few different designs or bullshit something entirely. I image its what a Polynesian tribal artist sees when they look at designs cut and pasted by tattooers going strictly off of visual aesthetic and mixing designs regardless of meaning. "Nice half sleeve, so looking at this, from the parts I understand, your people are the shark fishermen of the mountains? That doesn't make sense".
At least now, I feel like I'm learning the language of it enough to design with respect to the culture and not have to worry about if it belongs to a tribe or clan or would offend anybody. It was one of the first questions I asked when I got here "what can I and can't I draw for people?" and was assured by my teachers that an eagle I draw does not belong to the Eagle clan, unless I were to directly copy a house front design, drum, blanket, etc that has been passed down and I appropriated the design without the right to do so. If I draw it and build it from scratch, it is my gift to give to the recipient. And within this style there is plenty of possible abstraction to go even further away from anything that wound be considered disrespectful or clan property.
How do the Native artists that I've talked to feel about people around the world getting their cultures artwork tattooed on them? They are fucking stoked. Especially since most of them have been commissioned by their friends and family to design tattoos for them. Just like any artists, they appreciate when it's done right and the medium and design work as one, they hate it when the design is great, but tattooed badly or tattooed well and badly designed. And I think, not to speak for all Alaska Native artists, but I know I'd rather see the art on as many people as possible, especially if I get to design it. I'd rather make the best native tattoos I can on anybody that not do it as much because of some cultural guilt. I know that this is a very specific corner of Native art, but I figured I'd chime in, because I was pretty cautious about the rules and stuff when I began to study. I've been lucky enough to design a fair amount of custom formline and even tattoo some of my carving designs. Lots of times the designs have stories, like the carving of the fish that I got to tattoo. When I carved that design I was illustrating a specific story about how Raven gave the Bullhead fish it's shape. If you look, the body is a Raven head. I won't bore you with the story, but when the customer came in who got the tattoo he asked "do you do that local native art stuff?" I said "'yeah, I carved that stuff right there", he saw that carving and went "that's bad ass. can I do that, but green instead of red?" and I was happy to give it to him. We didn't get all spiritual about the story and he was happy to get it because he thought it looked cool and he wanted some Alaskan art to remember the years he spent here. No problem, buddy. Have a seat.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

Another half-breed right here. But I'm from Alaska, so none of our imagery has come up in this conversation, but here you go anyway...I did a fair amount of northwest native (aka Haida or more accurately formline) style tribal during the first 3/4 of my tattoo career while I was in washington state, but I moved back to Alaska four years ago and really started to research the style. I started working with a local carver and studied on paper first, eventually painting and working my way up into a carving apprenticeship. I know this style is usually a pain for a lot of tattooers and I understand. When someone brings a design of this style in and it is tattoo-able, it's usually still a lot of work and doesn't feel too rewarding until you are done. But after studying it, I love designing formline from the the ground up and tattooing it. I know this is pretty specialized and leans more towards polynesian tribal than whip shaded indian girl heads or navajo designs that are (or were) on trend for clothing and fashion, but some things are the same for all of those different variations on American Native Art.
When I see stuff in formline style, now I know right away if the tattooer found it, had to change parts for the tattoo and make up shapes, collage together a few different designs or bullshit something entirely. I image its what a Polynesian tribal artist sees when they look at designs cut and pasted by tattooers going strictly off of visual aesthetic and mixing designs regardless of meaning. "Nice half sleeve, so looking at this, from the parts I understand, your people are the shark fishermen of the mountains? That doesn't make sense".
At least now, I feel like I'm learning the language of it enough to design with respect to the culture and not have to worry about if it belongs to a tribe or clan or would offend anybody. It was one of the first questions I asked when I got here "what can I and can't I draw for people?" and was assured by my teachers that an eagle I draw does not belong to the Eagle clan, unless I were to directly copy a house front design, drum, blanket, etc that has been passed down and I appropriated the design without the right to do so. If I draw it and build it from scratch, it is my gift to give to the recipient. And within this style there is plenty of possible abstraction to go even further away from anything that wound be considered disrespectful or clan property.
How do the Native artists that I've talked to feel about people around the world getting their cultures artwork tattooed on them? They are fucking stoked. Especially since most of them have been commissioned by their friends and family to design tattoos for them. Just like any artists, they appreciate when it's done right and the medium and design work as one, they hate it when the design is great, but tattooed badly or tattooed well and badly designed. And I think, not to speak for all Alaska Native artists, but I know I'd rather see the art on as many people as possible, especially if I get to design it. I'd rather make the best native tattoos I can on anybody that not do it as much because of some cultural guilt. I know that this is a very specific corner of Native art, but I figured I'd chime in, because I was pretty cautious about the rules and stuff when I began to study. I've been lucky enough to design a fair amount of custom formline and even tattoo some of my carving designs. Lots of times the designs have stories, like the carving of the fish that I got to tattoo. When I carved that design I was illustrating a specific story about how Raven gave the Bullhead fish it's shape. If you look, the body is a Raven head. I won't bore you with the story, but when the customer came in who got the tattoo he asked "do you do that local native art stuff?" I said "'yeah, I carved that stuff right there", he saw that carving and went "that's bad ass. can I do that, but green instead of red?" and I was happy to give it to him. We didn't get all spiritual about the story and he was happy to get it because he thought it looked cool and he wanted some Alaskan art to remember the years he spent here. No problem, buddy. Have a seat.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

really crappy photo of my forearm snake by Jeff Rassier from around 2000 or 2001.

First try with photos. Hope this works... The parrot and skull with top hat are Bert Grimm. The man who had them said the parrot was done in 1980, when Mr. Grimm was 80 years old in Oregon. He also had the rose from Sailor Jerry. The snake was on a guy that came in to the shop here in Juneau that said he'd gotten it at China Sea and that it was lined by Jerry, but that it was shaded and colored by a female with him watching over her. Artist unknown on the devil head.

Greg Irons on Sailor Cam. Big thanks to Cam for letting me take this picture a few years ago.

First try with photos. Hope this works... The parrot and skull with top hat are Bert Grimm. The man who had them said the parrot was done in 1980, when Mr. Grimm was 80 years old in Oregon. He also had the rose from Sailor Jerry. The snake was on a guy that came in to the shop here in Juneau that said he'd gotten it at China Sea and that it was lined by Jerry, but that it was shaded and colored by a female with him watching over her. Artist unknown on the devil head.

First try with photos. Hope this works... The parrot and skull with top hat are Bert Grimm. The man who had them said the parrot was done in 1980, when Mr. Grimm was 80 years old in Oregon. He also had the rose from Sailor Jerry. The snake was on a guy that came in to the shop here in Juneau that said he'd gotten it at China Sea and that it was lined by Jerry, but that it was shaded and colored by a female with him watching over her. Artist unknown on the devil head.