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From Kim Saigh's instagram, progress from Saturday...maybe one more session to go:

Keepcalm, it's entirely possible you won't be a lucky as to have an artist or situation where you feel you don't need some input. Like above people said, personally I have never changed a design simply because I approached them for their style. 99% of most clients are not like that. That's a special breed. Ok maybe 97%. I have been stuck redrawing something a bit too many times and it does get aggravating in some cases. It happens but thankfully not often. It's kind if part if the deal; we try to make you what you want, with the exception of professional judgement calls of technical aspects such as design structure. But if it's as simple as "I'm not sure I like the way those wings look, it's too ____ for me" then it's part of the job to try to make it more appealing to you, without the ego of "this is what I wanted to do so that I can get a picture of it.". I would rather re-draw the wings and make you happy than have you go to a different shop later and say "this isn't what I wanted". The other day I drew up a bird and roses and banner for someone brought in some shitty JPEG that they liked. I took down what they wanted, made an appointment, and then spend some time making a drawing for that tattoo. When he came in for a follow-up before the actual tattoo he looked at it and I could tell something bothered him. Apparently the bird I used (thanks Jerry) wasn't to his liking, he wanted it closer to the lame one on the JPEG. To me it looked rad because it was a classic looking bird. To him he just wanted a different style, and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just a matter of personal taste. I was a little bummed, but I gave him the kind of bird he wanted. And he left super happy. Which means he'll be coming back and bring his friends and maybe one of them want the 'cooler' bird. Don't be scared to speak up. You live with this tattoo until you're dead. I will see that tattoo maybe once in my life at the most. You should be comfortable with what you wear, I often hear that they didn't want what the artist wanted to do. Well if you don't speak up then it's not our fault! Be assertive and make sure that if you don't like it then don't get it. Edit; Siri made all kind of blunders here, Apologies for odd sentence structure or the use of wrong words.

This is my latest from Nick Colella at the motor city tattoo expo. Pretty fricking sweet.

It's amazing how far this will get you in life in general.

Something that bums me out sometimes about the culture of tattoo "collectors" is a preoccupation with being a "cool" client, i.e. someone who seems "down" and who the tattooer hits it off with. I wonder if this is maybe where these kinds of anxieties come from. Fuck that. You sound polite and respectful, which is probably how most of us aim to be in most customer service situations. That is how I try to behave in most of my day-to-day dealings too. Beyond that, I try not to worry about whether or not I am "cool", or anyone's fave. That shit gets a bit too high school for me. Also I am not cool.

I posted this in the latest tattoo lowdown a couple of months ago when we got them, but me and my wife @Pugilist got matching tattoos (again) in December. Chris Hold at Sacred Heart in Vancouver did them and they're from Doc Forbes flash because what else would you get as a souvenir tattoo in Vancouver? Mine is on the left, hers is on the right.

Some people just like the sound of their own voice. I am always so pleased to hear the expert insights from non-professionals into the craft I've been involved in and working in. I especially love the client that talks the talk like they grew up in a tattoo shop or fell out of the womb onto a stencil. Until someone has sat in my chair doing what I do their opinion or expertise or whatever the fuck they think they know doesn't mean shit. And critics that don't tattoo have the same amount of credibility as Dave Navarro.

What is this myth? That because somebody has tattoo equipment that they're automatically a professional? Who actually is saying that? You used a lot of words to express something that could be said in a short sentence. I find it odd that you felt the need to even post this here because if you look at the Latest Tattoo Lowdown thread and the Tattoo of the Month contests it should be obvious that people here know a thing or two about getting tattooed. If you take a long view of tattooing, none of this is new in any way. George Burchett wrote about scratchers in the early 20th century; Stoney talks about it; I can't remember if it's in Justin Spring's biography of him or in Bad Boys and Tough Tattoos, but Phil Sparrow doesn't have a lot of good things to say about the tattooers on State Street in Chicago. In Ed Hardy's autobiography he talks about people who tattooed for the money who didn't have any love or respect for the art. This is all way before reality TV and the internet. There have always been hacks. There will always be hacks. There's no point in wasting any excess energy caring about this.

My issue here is that while I more or less agree with the idea of educating people about tattoos so that they have the understanding to be able to look at, recognise, and get good work, I still don't want to read the OP's post. It isn't engaging, it doesn't connect with people, and I don't think it even makes a genuine attempt to connect with people. I also feel that one of the things that makes LST a really special place is that there is a tremendous amount of first-hand knowledge and experience here, at this point mostly with collectors, though if you look back far enough there used to be a lot of really great artists posting here too, and @Victor, I've seen a lot of thoughts and ideas from you so far, but you haven't said if you're an artist or a collector, you haven't told us about your tattoos or told good tattoo stories, you haven't posted pictures. Tattoo pictures are like currency here. This matters. Experience matters. It's always better to speak specifically and to direct personal experience. As far as trying to educate people about good tattoos--and I don't mean to imply any kind of tattoo evangelism here, because when it comes down to it, people get the tattoos they get and if people are going to go to hacks and butchers, that isn't going to have any effect on the tattoos I get--I think LST's motto of GET GOOD TATTOOS is key here. In my day to day life, people I know who are interested in tattoos will talk to me because it's obvious from looking at me that I like tattoos and I get good ones, and I can direct them to good shops and artists, or offer them solid advice. I have a friend who recently started getting tattooed who wasn't especially interested in tattoos until me and my wife started getting seriously tattooed because he didn't know that tattoos could look like the ones we get. He thought they all looked like the shitty ones you typically see around. Good tattoos begets good tattoos.

While I was in Germany for Carlos not so long ago Dmitriy Samohin was there also so he had the chance to finally take shots he wanted of the whole sleeve healed. I am guessing he didn't want to touch contrast or anything to show how its healed so they are raw shots with nothing added :) Here they are for who is interested in professional shots rather than my own shit ones :)

Wow, thank you everyone for the detailed replies! Of course, I've never said anything like "This is all shitty!" after seeing a design, haha. I usually love the designs I've been shown as a whole. The changes I've requested in the past have been small, and they only required the artist to redraw a small part of the design, not the whole thing. I always try to be kind and courteous, of course -- after all, this is part of my point: This is someone's art, and even though it's going on my body, I don't want to insult anyone! At the same time, I want to really love my tattoo. The times I've asked, the tattooer has said something like "for sure, no problem" -- and made the change I asked for. I've never asked for more than one change per tattoo I've gotten. And I didn't ask for any changes at all for two of my pieces. I dunno. This is the hardest part of the process for me, probably. I have taken a page out of "the book" here from you guys and learned to pick artists whose work I just totally love -- my next tattoo is being done by one of those people (Dennis del Prete at Providence Tattoo in RI), and I don't anticipate wanting anything on his design changed. Anyway, good advice here -- thanks again, all.

My understanding is that the reason (among others) many tattooers won't show you a design before your appointment is due to having been ripped off by clients who then take the design and get it done somewhere else (i.e. cheaper). Which is totally fair enough. I have never asked a tattooer to change what they drew for me because I have usually been lucky enough to book in with people whose work I love and whose vision I want and trust. That said, I have sort of "worked out" the details of the tattoo on the spot a lot (especially for my back). Most of the time the tattooer has really wanted to make sure I am happy and comfortable with the direction we're going, so I would think that as long as: a) you're not a nitpicky jerk; b) you aren't massively contradicting what you asked for initially; and c) you are respecting the tattooer's advice (so if you ask them for too much and they tell you they have to simplify, I would trust that even if it's not what I imagined) - then any professional would be professional about it.

Well I figured I would give an update on my trip and see what you all think. Trip was a little bust from the get. My boy who I was staying with got a new boss weeks before my arrival. He revoked his vacation request for the day I arrived and the day after, Friday. Thursday night was cool, took the BART at Fruitvale in to see the Warriors beat Chicago. Friday I just rode around while my buddy worked. Not too exciting. Woke up Saturday and headed in to Jose. Stopped in at State of Grace. Scored a T-Shirt and 3 prints. After that we headed over to New Generation and had the best tattoo experience I've ever had with the talented Khuong Ngyuen. This is what 6 hours gets you! By the way I'm looking for suggestion for my next session in September. Yes September, oh so long away....anyway looking for ideas for her robe? Color scheme patterns etc.

God bless them.

Only two of my five tattoos (the larger ones) were drawn up in advance, and I didn't ask for any changes because they were awesome already. My first tattoo I actually did ask for a very minor change and it wasn't an issue. I was a bit surprised when he drew it up that day, because most of my friends seemed to be emailing designs back and forth with their artists in advance. Now I know that trying to control your tattoo down to the smallest detail isn't going to end up looking as good as just letting the artist handle the art.

I am apprenticing in more of a street shop than a custom studio (nice mix of appointments and people who just walk in)....but most of the time if it is something of the small to medium size it can be drawn up on the spot provided we have the time to do so (are not swamped with customers)....if not we take a deposit and set up an appointment and the drawing or concept drawing will be done before you come in to be tattooed! I think it is fair for a customer to ask for changes to be made as the design is something you will be living with the rest of your life BUT of course I agree with the "a, b, & c" that Puglist just posted.....if you totally changed your idea around a lot after it's been drawn I can see that frustrating a tattoo artist a little! I too am like Harry878 though.......I go to a tattoo artist because I like the type or style of tattooing they do....give them an idea if they ask.....or give them full creative freedom....and get the tattoo they come up with! I have some really crazy stuff on me and it always makes for nice conversations since everyone now feels that all tattoos should have a meaning....LOL Just be respectful in your requests....and all should be well!

(Mine is obviously the best one.) ;)

Maybe I misunderstand your original point but just because a barber has a storefront and a pair of scissors doesn't mean you're going to get a good haircut or a mechanic has a lift and some tools doesn't mean he won't mess up your car. Why would it be any different with tattoos?

It's like you're talking at people instead of trying to have a conversation with them.

Scott's was the worst. From what I can tell, the area in general is fucking horrible to have tattooed. Scott managed to finish the tattoo in a little over two hours. God damn it was fast. Freddy's was still miserable, but much easier to get through. @SStu here is a really shitty pic of the two semi-together. It's hard to get a good shot on both sides of the belly. (excuse the shitty tape marks).

I did that in several blocks without looking at what she wrote. Her transcriptions are kind of interesting at times haha - - - Updated - - - Great shop great choice. Please share afterwards!

There's too much to type to explain the confusion over the mythology. Its not about tattooing being a subculture. Its about the various subcultures that get tattoos. You've had military, hot rod/kustom culture, bikers, punkers, greasers, juggalos, skinheads, thugs, etc. Now that includes people who are just interested in tattoos as being the common thing. Usually in the other social groups or subcultures, you can see a trend of common interests. So now I think people are overly trying to impose ideas on other groups because of their own internal struggle to find a common interest across the board with other tattooed folks in a different social class or subculture. Even when there is overlap or other common interests among like minded individuals, it doesn't and shouldn't dictate an assimilation of all thoughts. Someone who just wants a mark on their body won't share the same concern or interest as someone who wants a full body suit so they may not want to pay a reasonable price or an expensive price to just satisfy their desire. Educate the people who genuinely want to know. Let folks get bad tattoos if they want. It used to be that if you saw someone with a certain type of tattoo it was sometimes a form of communication. The style the content etc. So if I see someone with a cool tattoo that I like I might ask them who did it and if I just see someone who has lots of tattoos I might not even look twice. Because tattoos alone aren't what's going to signal me to a like minded person. So let's not try so hard to convert the unwilling. We need clear clues as to the message these folks are trying to send. I say this as simply observing for the last 20+ years of getting tattooed and the last 10 of doing them. There's still a good chance I'm confused or just full of shit but that's what I've noticed.

Its been awhile, but thought I would stop by here. I think ultimately you have to pick and choose how to deal with the situation. Our shop we try to show everyone a design that is about 75% drawn before we set the appointment. Sometimes that is not possible because of people traveling, and walk ins we try to just draw on the spot, as long as it feasible. No artwork leaves the shop and we don't allow people to take pictures so they don't price shop with it. I think subconsciously if you make people wait to get tattooed and don't show them the drawing they might be less likely to have you make changes, but on the other hand, but having to reschedule their appointment to redraw something and not making any money is not an ideal scenario either or even worst bumping your evening appt who had no problem cause you had to redraw your afternoon appt. On the other hand letting people go home and think about your drawing, sometimes backfires as well, you end up with someone who stops in every day the week before an appt with a new idea or something they saw on the internet and you have to try to bring them down to earth and keep them focused. Ultimately the goal is for everyone to be happy with their tattoo and the shop to stay busy and profitable. Redrawing tattoos is going to happen no matter what, so it's just a matter of how a shop or tattooer chooses to deal with it. As a customer I would encourage people to be reasonable and listen to the tattooer, but always speak up before the tattoo is applied, because afterward is too late.

I think most of these are case-by-case scenarios, and no clear answer for you, sorry. A lot of variables are involved, and any number of situations could take it in any direction. Yes it's possible you might get re-booked for a later session depending on to what extent changes need to be made, amount of scheduled time, whether or not or other clients are after your appointment, whether or not the shop and tattooer has flexible hours if re-drawing takes a significant amount of time etc etc. I'd say most of the time changes are minor and take relatively little time especially if the tattooer has drawn it a few times already before even seeing the client.

@ian everyone has already given you due props, but thanks for this thread! I think all of us (even those who do a good job of being nice) need reminders to be kind and decent. It's very easy to slip into close-mindedness and a "holier-than-thou" perspective. To be honest, I think when people get defensive and *slightly* hostile is when "newbies" bite back or criticize our efforts to help. I wish you smooth sailing for your divorce. That can never be an easy thing to go through...

If you do not like what a tattooer has drawn up, then I would say something. The tattoo is going on you for life, and you don't want to be looking at it 20 years from now saying "I wish I spoke up before this was laid down." A lot of people in this thread already have been lucky enough to really like what the original drawings have been, myself included for my own tattoos. But I can tell you that if something does get drawn up that I do not like, I would ask for it to be changed. The only thing I can really relate to this is when Dana drew up my back piece. Such a huge thing, he never showed me a drawing until I walked in the door for the first appointment. I was apprehensive as hell, but he blew it out of the park and I loved what he drew up. But honestly I would have asked him to redraw it if he went with the 1 faced 2 armed version of Kongo Yasha. That bitch has 3 faces and 6 arms dammit!

I don't believe I have ever asked for anything to be changed from a drawing, but I did ask for the preposition "to" to be changed to the adverb "too" after a sketch was drawn on me in sharpie. My mentor always tells clients that when they come in for their appointment and they want to see something adjusted, let him know, because ultimately it is their tattoo. I suppose, however, that I am so confident in the people who tattoo me that I really don't care if it isn't exactly what I envisioned, because I can't draw that well and I trust their ideas.

Personally I've never asked a design to be changed but my approach to collecting tattoos is to choose an artist and let them have complete control. I'm just happy to have a cool tattoo from a talented artist. I should also note that my ideas are usually so minimal/basic that the artists sometimes ask a bunch of questions to get a better idea of what I'm hoping for.

The best advice I ever got was....."if you want to know anything about tattooing then you go get tattooed by good qualified tattoo artists AND if they are willing to share ANY bits of information about tattooing with you....then you should feel honored!" That information has helped me more than you can imagine....it told me right up front to respect the people who are tattooing me and the knowledge they possess! Now of course this was said to me long before television raped the craft and the internet was filled with "how to" videos and machines were sold on ebay......but the advice still holds very true! Now I have been a tattooed person for 30 years and I still feel weird giving advice to people who ask me.....even though I am a year into a tattoo apprenticeship and with the experiences I have had being tattooed and the knowledge that was shared with me..... I still feel the only person qualified to give good advice is someone who has actually been trained to tattoo properly and has put their time in! Do I give advice to friends from time to time when asked.....yes! Do I feel I can recognize a good tattoo from a bad one.....yes! If you truly want a good tattoo then you will do the research as many of us here did and you will get one! But it has been said here already.....most people just want a tattoo and are not too worried if their tattoo has a double line....a few hollow spots.....or was done by an "ink master" ;)

If you're willing to go to LA to get tattooed, I'd suggest checking out Tattooland. Chris Brand, Stan Corona, and Mike Suarez could all give you a great tattoo. I'm not sure all these images will work, but let's try this: Chris Brand: Stan Corona (kind of wanted to find a picture of a dragon he's done, but this backpiece is just too good to not share): Mike Suarez: Personally, I wouldn't worry about things like waiting lists. You might have to wait, you might not, but it's far more important to get the tattoo you really want.

Might it be worth having a specific thread for questions that might be considered dumb, or for people to post in when they have something to say that isn't worthy of its own thread? People can avoid or refer people to it at will then. I'd also like to say that I've been impressed with how literate even the arguments here are! There doesn't seem to be the usual pile-on I've seen on other forums. People still take time to post rationally and have a proper discussion over the issue.

Ian, sorry to hear about your divorce- the best of luck... As far as the forum goes I am not really convinced we are that unfriendly or closed off as group, to be honest. How many people are banned or told off by moderators here? Practically none. This is still a very, very civil forum by online standard for the most part. There is the appearance of a 'clique' but actually there is a turnover of members here and I see new posters become regulars become 'old hands' in time... It's always possible to be 'even nicer', but my personal view is that a pretty good balance is struck on the forum in terms of being friendly but also being honest. I like the fact that there's a lively atmosphere with some home truths occasionally being told, and I would hate too see that go.... I have learned a lot from some of the tattooers' rants posted on here!

right near State of Grace... best manju shop...handmade by some cute little old ladies... shuei-do and for some tasty home-style eats Gombei Japanese Restaurant but i believe neither take credit cards :/

That's the uniform.

I believe that the correct nomenclature here is "nip zips". I didn't think my collarbones were too bad. There were unpleasant moments for sure (hello vibrations through my entire skeleton!) but it wasn't awful.

It was a lot of fun last year. And Montreal is always worth visiting.

I'm a little confused by this statement... Am I correct to interpret this as "I am a tattoo artist but not willing to be up front and honest about my background on this particular internet forum?" I ask because I read your posts and they are all very thorough but it is very difficult to truly appreciate your statements without some info on what shapes your perspective of these issues.

Honestly I am a bit lazy so......maybe this was answered already but...... Who do you feel should be the one to "educate" the general public? Also.....you can give the info to people....tell them who the best people are to go to....tell them why they shouldn't go to non-properly trained tattoo artist......AND 8 out of 10 times they will listen to what you say......AND still go to their cousin's, brother's, uncle and get tattooed in his kitchen or a shitty shop! I think anyone who has been around tattooing for more than a couple years has been frustrated by their friends who ask but don't listen...... But most of all I am interested in who you think should be the ones educating the public?

First session of my eagle/rose done this weekend, second session to do the color in a few weeks. Done by Karl Williams. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

@Victor I don't see a "common sphere of activity" around tattoos. For the overwhelming majority of people who get tattoos or are planning on getting tattoos, their involvement in tattoos begins and ends with going into a shop and getting tattooed. And that is totally fine, I think there's nothing wrong with getting tattoos and not wanting to get covered or go to conventions or participate in forums like this one. When I think of a "scene" I think of people organized around a common interest, sure, but I also see a lot of boundaries and exclusion and trying to fit in, and that is going to push a lot of people away. If you want people to get better tattoos, being open and inclusive and actually listening to people is going to be far more useful. Now let's see some tattoo pictures.

@ian - I hope you're doing ok. I am sorry that you are having such a rought time right now. @cltattooing - thank you for your reflections on ego. This is one of the major things that bums me out about tattoo subculture. I always say to @Graeme that it reminds me of the frustration I felt in punk subculture back in the day - that subcultures are supposed to counter cults of personality and celebrity and often end up creating their own. It's hard to find that line between pride and arrogance, between respect and worship, between belonging and exclusion. It's something I think about a lot on both the tattooer and the collector side of things - how can people really love this thing without becoming dicks about it?

hence this forum, bro

Thanks, everybody.I wish I could take more credit for how rad the hand is, but all credit goes to Steve. I have one more to share, from today. Hyottoko from Civ, followed by one last pass to get rid of the money in my wallet, then about 10 hours or so back to Kansas. My coworker Jimmy also got tattooed by Paul Dobleman and Stefano (the flower/chain that he posted earlier) to finish his lower arm, and we brought along my parents and got them tattooed. Neither had been to a convention in about 20 years. My mom got a big Texas tribute from Oliver Peck (after I told her an idea she should get while we were in a Whattaburger), and my dad got a really nice rose on his neck from Bobby Padron from ROA. He also won best small B&G with his 30 year old Charlie Cartwright hand tattoos. I doubt we'll ever hear the end of it... in a good way. Also picked up tons of prints, a small Beppe Strambini original, and some stories. Learned through keeping my eyes open as well. Looking forward to next year.

I think it's a given that regulars here are aficionados of good tattooing. So you're preaching to the choir, here on LST at least. If you've read around you probably noticed the calibre of work people are getting. I don't really have a view on whether tattooing is a profession or a craft, I'll leave that one to the tattooers.

Finished these ones yesterday. @Scott Sylvia did the skull on the right, Freddy Corbin on the left. These were done over a week and a half. It was a fuckin honor to be tattooed by both. Fuck sorry about the size.

This year's Montreal convention is still a long way off, but they just released the poster for the convention: Mike Rubendall did the poster and it's a truly great one. If past years are any indication, it'll be a while yet before we see what artists will be attending, but Val and Pierre from Tattoomania always do a tremendous job with the convention and get some of the finest tattooers from around the world to attend, it's held in a beautiful space, and it's a really fun time in a great city. We also had a little LST meetup last year and it was a real pleasure to meet some of you in person. This year, the convention is going to start off at the Yves Laroche Gallery with a showing of new paintings from Phil Holt, Timothy Hoyer, Lango Oliveira, and Edu Cerro and if you've been following those guys on instagram you know that the show is going to have some pretty spectacular pieces in it. Anyway, here are links to the convention: website instagram facebook Who is planning on going?

I think it goes beyond the price haggling and complaining, you have to size someone up as they walk in the door, how they are dressed, what they drive up in, what kind and how much source material they have with them, what their other tattoos look like and how they conduct themselves as a person. If they act like a cartoon character or try to come off as super cool or do they interact with you like a normal person. My main red flag even if they pass the other tests is when someone says they would never get something off the wall, that means they might be more likely to be difficult when it comes to the drawing. But we try not to turn away business and deal with most people, i would say price haggling is the only real deal breaker and once a number is thrown out there it never goes down. If someone is going to be a pain in the ass, you should at least get paid what you are worth for it and price will weed out a lot of crazy and hopefully avoids the scenario of losing your cool on a customer. But don't be mistaken, some people need to be kicked out of a tattoo shop, but most people don't they are just sensitive yuppies who need a little extra attention.

$650 deposit? Ive never heard of someone asking for that much down, especially someone who doesn't notice their star is that wonky. I think you should point it out to him and if he doesn't offer to fix it, I would try to get your deposit back, I don't see how anyone could not fix it or understand your dissatisfaction.Nor would they want this picture circulating around the internet with their name attached.

I briefly met tim a 2 years ago but was in tattoo fog and didnt properly introduce myself when he came up to me. Last October @cvportagee and I walked up to him and he was so easy to talk with and gave both of us numbered prints of his "tattoo apprentice" drawing. He seemed genuinely excited to do my stomach. He is a busy man and honestly His approach is quite refreshing IMO. I mean he could keep it straight business and have a 2 yr wait and funnel everything through assistants but he seems to be more interested in tattooing friends, other tattooers and shit he really likes to do rather than take all comers.

Saw this one from Dana Helmuth. What can I say, I'm a fan of his work.