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Here they are (stolen from her instagram)! By Nora Townsend of Magnetic North Tattoo in Burlington, VT. So blown away by the end result and love how big (and low :eek:!) we went. Nora is so amazing, and it was refreshing to talk candidly about the tattoo industry and all our favorite artists. She's apparently heavily influenced by Wendy Pham... kickass! I was so impressed how knowledgeable a small town shop in the middle of nowhere VT can be. One of the co-owners of the shop showed me an old in-progress O'Donnell piece, soo good. Made me miss being in NYC, but very relieved to have a solid shop down the street from me!

"All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated, and well supported in logic and arguement than others" -Douglas Adams (in reference to some of the discussions of a few of the older generation) As for the collector idea being a positive or a negative, the same could be said for any other type of collection. We all knew that one guy who had $3,000 worth of guitars and amps, but couldn't play to save his life... or the guy with an original pressing of some band's album that he actually can't tell you a thing about. Some people get it and seek it for that reason. Some people seek it because they want to seem like they get it, and they're supposed to. For a personal story... my first two favorite tattooers (as in could see their work and know it was theirs' somehow) were Steve Byrne and Chris O'Donnell. Two years in a row I've gotten tattooed at the West Texas Convention. The first year, Steve Byrne stopped tattooing and asked myself and my coworker if we had any questions, and if we did to ask him, since Dreyfuss wasn't in yet. And he did the same for everyone that came by, including answering questions while tattooing. When I got my hand tattooed by him this year, he asked me various questions, asked how I enjoyed entering my second year as a tattooer after it came up, told me about why he has regular roses and not Tudor/geometric roses on his hands, made Gorilla Biscuits and CIV lyric jokes with me about my Civ appointment the next day ("I don't want him to mess up... I better stand still." "I bet you can't wait one minute more for it, huh?"), and was nicer than almost anyone I've met in any circumstance. He also easily took the stress of the convention, the poor lighting (Thomas Hooper broke his lamp the night before), and dealing with potential clients or box-set purchasers the whole time. And the next day, he saw me walking around, called out to me, and asked if I had a travel lightpad, before suggesting I get one since I didn't. And asked how my dad liked his new rose tattoo from Bobby Padron a little later. My right hand is absolutely my favorite tattoo, not just because of who did it and what it represents, but also all of those aspects about the experience. When I was looking at his booth when he wasn't there, Forrest Cavacco yelled from 50 feet away that, if I had questions, to come see him. Adam Hays had me check out the Lando tattoo he was doing when I bought prints from him, since he figured I liked Star Wars from what I was buying. Ben Cheese and Clayton James have been among the nicest people I've talked to as well, even when we couldn't afford to get tattooed and just grabbed prints from them. I plan on getting tattooed by Ben this February when we go. That being said, I stood at a few people's tables for almost 15 or 20 minutes, even when they were taking an Instagram break mid-tattoo, waiting to buy a shirt. After they had looked and made eye-contact me. And ignored everyone else that was there, even the person in their chair. I unfollowed a few very well known folks on IG and decided I'd take my business to others. At least a quick "Hey man, I'm kinda busy, can you give me X minutes" would have made all of the difference. I'd imagine there are lots of folks who would still throw money at them and get whatever would get the most likes on IG or Tumblr, but that's what separates the mindsets, as everyone here has already explained in was far less rambling, far more concise, and far less fanboy-ish. EDIT: Slight addendum... my hand has a few blow outs. One spot took over a month to fully heal. A few lines are a bit thin in places compared to the overall average. One line on a wave between my fingers has a 1/16" gap that doesn't connect. But it is absolutely my favorite tattoo.

@CultExciter awwww shit gurl :o So I know the Horiyoshi III thing had been dropped, but I've been blessed enough to see 3 of his tattoos in person and they are OUT OF FUCKING CONTROL. One of them is a peony on the forearm, want to know what sort of stencil he used? A square. Drawn on with a sharpie. Let's not forget that the man is in his 70s. Ahem, anyway Tim Lehi is a great example of a very loose tattooer who delivers with power every time. And also, to touch on the statement that Stuart Cripwell has gone the more wonky route when he could have been cleaner, I'll just say this. After a certain period of experience in tattooing, your style reflects your natural drawing. Your early years are largely about learning how to put the tattoo in, and then once you kinda figure that out, you can bend the rules of tattooing to suit the sort of art that you want to make. So to me it seems kinda silly to say "oh he could have done this but instead he chose to do this," when I think most of us are just trying to make tattoos that we think are awesome.

got my knee done by matthew houston in amsterdam yesterday: took that instagram picture, can't make my own cause its swollen like a watermelon at the moment. :D

I want to get tattooed by people who do tattoos that I can feel in my gut, which is to say that when I see an artist's tattoos, or look through their portfolio or on their instagram or whatever (though more and more for me I want to see the tattoos, and not just pictures of them) I want to have a deeper reaction than just thinking that it's a good looking tattoo, and I want to have a good time getting those tattoos. I've been tattooed by some "big names" and I've travelled a fair bit to get tattooed, and to be honest, I feel a little self-conscious about it because--and maybe this is only in my head--I fear coming across as somebody who buys into that kind of almost celebrity culture that sometimes goes along with tattoo collecting that I think @Pugilist articulated very well. Because for me it's not about that and it was never about that. I just want to get rad tattoos.

Finally back at it. This one from Xam at Seven Doors, taken from Instagram:

@mmikaoj - thanks for kicking off a good thread, with a lot going on in it. I would think most of us can get behind the OP's premise that sometimes big name culture can be a poor guide to who to get tattooed by. If the reason someone is chosen as an artist is because they HAVE that big name, not because of what earned it for them, then that's, as @Pugilist said, something like starfucking. It's not even the same as people who get tattooed by Ami James because he's on TV... It's actually different because it's masquerading as something more like connoisseurship, even though it isn't. I've been in a couple of shops where I think, objectively speaking (if such s thing is possible) the newer tattooers that were being brought along were clearly going to outstrip their teachers eventually. Jondix and Horiyoshi III must have been rookies and then journeymen too at some stage. There must have been a tipping point somewhere where people getting work from them knew that they were lucky to be in the seat at that time. Where this thread falls into controversy is when Eddie and Horiyoshi III were somewhat roughly evaluated. I don't agree that Eddie Deutsche has even remotely lost it, FWIW, and in the case of Horiyoshi III I don't know enough to comment. I concluded a while back that his instagram photos were not a good guide, full stop, but a tattooer whose opinion I trust told me he thought that health problems were taking their toll on his tattooing. I would get tattooed by him because of who he is, but I wouldn't go in there expecting it to be like a tattoo done in his prime. On the whole taking offence / smack talking thing... I don't think anything in this thread has crossed that line yet. So far all I see are honestly held opinions, misguided or subjective perhaps, but no full-blown smack-talking. I DO want to know where the local shop with tattooers as good as Shige, Horiyoshi III etc is... I'm guessing Rock of Ages or something [emoji12]

I had a poetry prof in university a million years ago who said something on the first day of class that I think applies to so many other things in life, and maybe it's relevant here, I dunno. He was addressing the perception of many freshmen that learning how to scan poetry, learning the rules of it, didn't matter, when so many of them took a shine to poetry after discovering e.e. cummings or Eliot's The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock -- in the case of the latter, mistakenly believing that it was free verse, which it actually isn't. But that mistake underlined his point, which is this: until you're familiar with the rules of a thing, until you understand the hows and whys of that thing, which often entails becoming familiar with its major players through history...you can't really meaningfully deviate from those rules. He said that he thinks it's important to break rules, but it's even more important to understand why you're breaking them when you do it. You start with the foundations, and then your choices have context and meaning, whatever choices you make afterward. Maybe this doesn't apply to tattooing, I don't know; I'm still learning...but I find that most people with knowledge of a subject will assume that a new person discarding the fundamentals of any given thing are doing themselves or the thing a disservice, for lack of having the knowledge to know any better. Maybe that's not always true; maybe a new person can just intuit those things and make excellent choices blindly. It does seem rather more unlikely, though.

Also: thanks @Pugilist for making some really important points. I'm going to try to look for this looseness that helps tattoos sits well on the body. I for sure don't wish everybody would tattoo like Tony Nilsson, but I guess I have a different standard of how much roughness, for lack of better word, that I like in my tattoos. One thing I learned to see by watching Robert Ryans stuff is that if he cleaned it up (like he probably can) it would lose that vibration that makes it go "aaahhhhhhhh" I agree that pictures are not the ideal way to look at tattoos, far from. In a way tattoos are like graffiti, they belong in real life. I see some fantastic stuff online but it doesn't compare to seeing pieces for real, even pieces objectively not as nice still grabs me more. I often see fantastic tattoos that I don't think I'd be as into if presented like a photo. Real Life rules, ya'll... Edit: to me that what makes tattooing such a strong and interesting art form. It's meant to age with you and to be viewed in all kinds of situations, not to be hanged on a wall in ideal light. For me the net is where I go looking to see the best work, if not visiting a convention. But some of the coolest tattoos I've seen have been on people I met in the metro. I'm happy @Pugilist broke these factors down. I feel we got a bit derailed on a part of what I brought up in the original post but it's been full of insight anyhow. One of the reasons why this forum is such a great place

I'm only on Page 2, but I had to chime in. I just saw some Derrick Snodgrass tattoos walk in, and they look sooooo good. The orange fell out in the flowers, but I'm still into it. It's got that "soul" that everyone's talking about. I actually can't wait for my tattoos to age and and look old. I'm a weirdo.

I've really enjoyed reading this thread so far. I think a few things are happening here: - If we're talking about people who take a collector's approach to getting tattooed (and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way), maybe interest in big names could be seen as roughly similar to getting books or music that are fairly "correct" but express little about a person. I know I own a lot of music like this, but I don't regret having it because it's helped me seperate what I like from what I'm supposed to like (and may still appreciate somewhat, but that doesn't viscerally excite me like a favorite album or novel). I think this is a phase that many folks need to go through when they discover a new interest but haven't really begun to inhabit it yet. -Most of us who aren't tattooers always need to spend money on this hobby (or whatever word you want to use). We're not trading art. Maybe there's an anxiety that this isn't any different from purchasing other things, even though it's a lot more intimate. Are my tattoos ultimately just an expensive suit? Am I just buying my way into something? I think there's also a point at which "good taste" becomes suffocating. I hope this makes sense and that it isn't just rambling. A lot of this is overthinking and I try not to worry about it and to just get what excites me. I can't control how it comes across to others, and you can tie yourself in knots thinking about your own motivations.

This thread really makes me only want to get tattooed by people older than me like Bob Roberts and Eddy Deutsche. I realize it wasn't your original point (I too am wary of the star culture in tattooing) but your misinformed dismissals ('there are limits'!) are so offensive to me that I can't get over it. In the end I realize it comes down to different sensibilities and what I'm looking for in tattoos is obviously very different from yours. BUT, if I can add my 2 cents as a person who's been tattooed by both Eddy Deutsche and Bob Roberts, Eddy is the most 'PMA' guy ever (if that's what you're after). If you're looking for an 'experience' or stories, Eddy and Bob have plenty. The flash at Spotlight has bullet holes. (The fact that the stencil is made from the original flash push pinned on the wall alone makes it almost worth getting the tattoo to be a part of the history.) Nothing 'soft' or 'squiggly' about my Bob Roberts tattoo. There's no question about Eddy's technical ability. I think every respectable tattooer would disagree with you on this point. I think people with 'perfect' tattoos look uptight--not what I'm going for (not interested in putting computer graphics on my body either). Any imperfections will add to its beauty.

I'll add some personal experience to the conversation here which I'm thoroughly enjoying. Seriously, LST has some really smart and savvy members that don't come off as know it all douche-bags. Without naming any names, I spoke with one older more establish tattoo artist about Instagram as well as one younger tattoo artist. The older one said while Instagram is nice and great for seeing what other artist's are doing, it lends itself to be a medium where people can rip off your work. The younger artist loves Instagram and stated that they get most of their work request via their Instagram postings (about 90%). Separately names are names, some established and worth the hype, others maybe not so much. I personally just get what I like and what is appealing to my eye. In the end I'm the one who has to live with the tattoo and if I'm not happy with it even if it was a "big name artist" why did I bother to get it in the first place. I completely agree in that seeing an artist's work on the Internet or on Instagram is not the same as seeing examples in real life. Again the Internet and Instagram is great for researching out ideas and seeing what artists are out there but it is only a component in the many facets of deciding on what tattoo to get and what artist to go with. There is still value in visiting a shop and going to conventions or even holding meet-ups like some LST'ers do from time to time.

I'd choose "tattoo mojo" over technical perfection any day. It's like music man... It needs soul! I think Deutsche, Roberts and Horiyoshi's work has plenty, and then some.

Lynch mob on the way. Eddy Deutsche is in my top 5 favorite tattooers of all time. I'm getting to the point where I don't care who has a bigger name or the most Instagram followers. People like Mike Adams and Amanda Wachob have thousands upon thousands of followers but I could care less about their work. (YES, I AM PUBLICLY SHIT TALKING.) I'll take Mike Roper over just about anyone everyday. Edit; I'll also take Joel Long, Mike Dorsey, Andrew Conner, Mike Rennie, Will Lollie, Virginia Elwood, Bart Bingham, John Henry Gloyne, Josh Arment, Dave Regan, Matt Brotka, Katie Davis, Ishmael Johnson, John Rippey, Eric Brooks, Jason Phillips, Carolyn LeBourgeois, Sean Perkinson, Chuck Kuhler, Aaron Coleman, Josh Brown, and a gazillion other people who are well known or completely unknown that kill it constantly. Tattooing is a rich community. There are so many people that do good things that it is impossible to narrow things down like people were able to 20-30-40 years ago. There used to be like 2 conventions a year, and now there is one every weekend. I suppose what I am saying echoes what @CABS had to say. The experience and the radness of the person will trump just about everything. I'm a young tattooer, and I fully realize I'm not very good at this right now, so I will do my best to make sure my friends get a cool experience and can always look at those blownout lines and holidays and smile saying "That was a good day."

The main progress of this weeks session. Is great to see some more colour. Background is now done and it is all colour from now on. :)

Finally got some color in yesterday :)

Got this chest eagle off Steve Byrne last week Don't think I posted these either Fudo of Stewart Robson Leopard off Valerie Vargas Scorpion off Valerie too And this mad skull off Andrea Furci

Done by Matt Cowell at House of Tattoo, Tacoma. A super cool guy that I am lucky to have got to know over the year process. Hours on end talking about our kids, our lives growing up, music, and our love for the regular show.

Don't feel too secure, DBD. I witnessed four good blue collars laid off this week because of how an upper manager screwed up our business. 30 years and a pension may be guaranteed still in some countries, but not in the USA! Thru the ether from my LP2

I'm just another blue collar, coverall wearing shift worker. Who also happens to be visibly tattooed, I guess. Our higher ups couldn't give two shits about tattoos as long as I show up and take some pride in doing what I was hired for. I know plenty of kids want the comfy desk jobs or fancy job titles these days, but I more enjoy the reliable paycheck and 30yrs & out with a solid pension route. Whatever floats your boat. Some of the old timers nearing retirement make some cheap shot comments about the "tattooed kids today", but it's usually in reference of their own children and usually more about their behavior than the actual tattoos. Show up daily with a good work ethic, pay your dues, and suddenly not a fuck is given about any tattoos you may have. I'm assuming that can be said about quite a few areas of work.

I'm not nearly articulate enough to express my thoughts on this as well as most of the replies in this thread, but @Graeme pretty much hit the nail on the head for me. It's all about the feeling I get from a tattoo. The picture posted the other day in latest tattoo lowdown of the ship by Xam was technically perfect, but that's not why I like it so much. It stopped me in my tracks, I was going to reply about how much I liked it in that thread but it honestly left me at a bit of a loss for words. On the flip side, I think most of us will agree that Chad K tattoos in a "looser" style. While his tattoos may not be as technically perfect, I find that more often tattoos like his stop me and make me feel something more than "wow that's nice" and I have to come back for another look more often. I really appreciate and enjoy both styles overall, but would rather wear the second. As far as tattoo "celebrity" goes, the only reason most of my favorite tattooers are big names is because I'm not in the loop enough to know of the talented artists that keep a lower profile. The name isn't what means anything to me though, it isn't shit without the talent to back it up. As an example, Kat Von D, Ami James, Tim Hendricks, and Oliver Peck are some of the most commonly known tattooers I can think of because of their TV exposure. I personally have no desire to be tattooed by the first two, I think they are both overplayed; I'm not saying they're terrible, I just think they get more credit than they are due. However, I would love to get tattooed by Tim or Oliver. Tim quite simply puts on some of the most beautiful roses I've seen, and Oliver's work just has a whole lot of that "soul" that @Pugilist mentioned. On top of that, both seem to be very stand up dudes. Hopefully some of that made sense, sorry if it's full of spelling errors I'm kind of in a hurry.

Hmm... In another thread you recently wrote that you're new to tattoos, so posting a bold statement like that is kind of odd. I'm not saying you don't have great local tattooers, I just thought that was a really weird thing to write.

So, uh... what's the name of this local shop and where is it??

Yeah, I think the thing some people need to remember is that these days most people seem to get their tattoo info from a format which involves looking at teeny tiny digital pictures, out of context, unhealed, etc. Instagram is basically bullshit for seeing the quality of people's work. If you've ever been lucky enough to see a Horiyoshi III tattoo in person, you would realize how seriously wrong you are. (This is kind of a digression, but what I hate about Instagram is that it ends up prioritizing tattoos that photograph well over tattoos that have soul. I'm going to go like, rearrange my crystals now.)

I can't get past the Eddy Deutsche "lost it" comment.

Tattoo veterans that have been doing it for decades have so much experience, that it's safe to say they know how to make a tattoo. Which is why I seek out those tattooers. But the new generation tattooer need to get experience somehow too, so I like to seek out new tattooers as well. At the end of the day, it all depends on the bed-side manner/if they are an asshole or not. I collect predominantly traditional, so if there are ten tattooers doing very similar work, then the customer experience is what will make one tattooer stand out from the rest. Plus, I would much rather get several tattoos from lesser known folks, than one tattoo from a "name."

I've been tattooed by some super "famous" tattooers and by some people no one's ever heard of. I am very, very wary of a sort of "starfucker' mentality in tattooing. There are so many amazing people that aren't as well known as they should be because maybe their style isn't trendy, or they're not on social media, or they just don't prioritize instagram like others do, or they don't travel to conventions as much, etc. People who are well known only gets you so much. And that one tattooer is more well known than another is not necessarily because they are "better". There is a lot of noise in this subculture, and I am very careful to pay attention to what really turns me on, so to speak, about a tattooer's work, and not get swept up in their name, hype, trendiness, whatever. I had a really good chat about this with a fairly "famous" tattooer recently, who said that while they get a lot of "collector" types coming to them, they can immediately tell the difference between someone seeking them out because they are really psyched on their work, and someone who is more interested in their name and adding it to their list. Apparently there is a pretty big difference in the experience of tattooing these different kinds of people. It was a nice conversation in that I sometimes feel self-conscious when people ask me who my stuff is by, or who I am planning to get tattooed by in the future, and this person was basically like: don't worry. If you are genuine in your enthusiasm, people can tell. If you're a douche and just want to cover yourself in big names, people will know the difference. Our true intentions show through, and it's important to me to connect with a tattooer's work in a very primal way. Basically, to this person, there is an upside and a downside to having a "big name". All of which to say that I think there is an important difference between recognizing, talking about and respecting the work of people who are doing awesome, creative and inspiring things, and getting wrapped up in names and tattoo celebrity. The former is what makes this community so great, but I think the latter is basically poison to any sense of creativity and authenticity. And the line between them can be thin. I also agree with others that the experience of getting a tattoo, or if I can put it in hippie terms, the vibes that go into it, is super important. At this point I am unlikely to get tattooed by someone that I haven't heard about through someone else as being awesome. Instagram photos are not enough.

Here's my left lower leg done with Matt Deverson from Progression tattoo in Adelaide Australia and the top of my right done with Matt (Dr Claw) from Diamond Club

@Iwar I also suggest California Academy of Sciences. My son is 3 and a half and loves that place. We live about 2 hours away from SF, but he always asks to go there and the SF zoo. I actually will be at State of Grace on the 18th (what time will you be there?) also my wife and I will be at Blackheart on the 22nd and I would be down to meet up and hang out for a while why my wife gets tattooed.

Got started on the back again after taking a break for the summer. Finished the upper background and started on some color to my pleasant surprise!

My 2º appointment with Unmon at LTW (Barcelona) Only one last session to go!

Will do. For those who haven't seen what's been done so far here's a pic Instagram

@Russ that Leopard is soo sweet!! Looks awesome! Had this Eagle and Skull combo done at the convention by Paul Dobleman

Had such a great time at the London Convention on Saturday, didn't get a chance to see much of it but I ended up getting tattooed by Greg Christian on top of my appointments with Bert Krak and Eli Quinters. The frog and fly are from Eli and the eagle and snake from Greg (picture from his instagram). I dont have a picture of the Ed Hardy Butterfly I got from Bert but i'll post one when I do.

Got this Namakubi from Pino Cafaro on Saturday at the London Tattoo Convention. Pino was a great guy and I'm vey happy with the outcome. It's on my chest so it was hard for him to tattoo given that there was no bench. Tricky to do in a chair.

You mean like these? Horimitsu Mike Rubendall Henning Jorgensen

Hey @Iwar: @Wilhell just told me you'll be staying in my neighborhood! It's only a 7-minute walk from my place. Sorry, I don't know how far that is in metric. ;)

I say screw all the noise and get what you want from who you want. Everyone has their reasons for getting tattooed, who are we to judge?

You absolutely ARE allowed to be unimpressed. But your opinions would be given better consideration if you shared your thoughts and reasoning behind your conclusions. This isn't a forum where you drop the body and run. We'd like you to tidy up the grave, plant some grass and leave a nice floral arrangement. A better tack might be to ask why someone else is impressed by said giants. So much great stuff is hidden in the back story. I'm pretty new as well. I recognize many of the names in this thread, but I had to look up a few. I admit for some, I don't know what I'm looking at beyond the basics. Some of the styles/artists really grab me, and other "big names" don't do much for me. But I'm very interested in conversations like this where people with a lot more experience than I have share the history that I know I'll never get from just surfing the internet and scrolling through Instagram. I thought all bodysuits looked about the same. And why are all these white dudes getting Japanese suits? Then I read some of the threads that talked about the meaning, and I found myself surfing some of the recommended sites. And the stories are so unfamiliar to me, but I like that I can "read" more of the tattoo when I see which way a koi swims or if maple leaves or cherry blossoms are present. And damn I love the kitunes (thank you @Tesseracts for that awesome education with yours!)! I was never interested in anything Japanese, but when I read Horitomo's Monmon Cat's book and learned the history of cats and rats and tattoos, and I saw the depth of his work in these smaller tattoos and I'm much more "moved" and "impressed" than before. It sounds trite, but I have a much better appreciation for his work (both Monmons and not) and that has made it more desirable to me. Perhaps I wasn't "unimpressed" before but just "uninterested." Of course anyone can disagree. But it's like flaunting ignorance not to have a meaningful conversation why you feel that way. $0.02

Not at all. It's like anything, when we discover a passion, we become excited, we like to learn as much as we can about a subject we know we'll have a lifetime fascination for, and I respect that also [emoji106] For me but, I've never followed mainstream, even within the sub cultures of my own life. I've never liked the term "allowed" or "you can't". They both defy our individuality. We're all different, but share a common passion with slightly different takes on it, that's what's so fuckin cool about it. It's fuckin cool that I don't really understand your desire to suit out, nor anybody understand mine. "Booze, Blues & Tattoos"

Proper nutrition is very important for healing any wound. Add some kibbles and bits to your diet, you'll be healed up in 2 days.

poor quality instagram photos will forever tarnish horiyoshi iii's legacy. #h2ocean #h2oceanproteam #officialh2ocean

Going into 5th day post back of neck slam. Just the final stage of flake to fall off now. Today will be the only slightest bit of cetaphil to assist with the dryness now. Gotta love healing easy. My only dilemma now is...I've realised I need to slam the rest of my neck in up to the jawline & have absolutely no idea what to put in there. I've virtually come to a stand still. I'll get back to this upper thigh and seek inspiration from under the machine I think. "Booze, Blues & Tattoos"

There's a bar literally right next door to blackheart, called zietgeist. I have a friend that works just up the street so we went there a lot, most the time I had a pretty good crowd and really good music. Did get a little hipsterish occasionally but overall I liked it.

That fire looks great!

The laundry company is falling behind so I am borrowing a short sleeve shirt. Today should be interesting.

Here is me getting tattooed this past Friday night! DISCLAIMER --- I am a tattooer that served a formal apprenticeship!!! (just testing out a new set of machines...before I use them on someone else) - - - Updated - - - @SeeSea .......That's what i had thought you were talking about originally......but it does seem to have morphed into "anything goes" :)